I'm only 3k so take this with a grain of salt.
If you want a hero that can seriously fuck Alch over, AA is good.
Not sure about Lifestealer but he sort of feeds off of big tanky heroes so that could work.
Blocking his camps helps massively in slowing down his farm.
Global heroes who can prevent his splitpush (I'm mostly thinking of Tinker when I say this, Furion just feeds him trees).
Don't forget about him. A lot of the time he'll lose mid and people just assume that's the job done, meanwhile he's farmed up another 2 items the 5 minutes he's been farming the jungle.
If he's spamming acid to zone you and push the wave then I think Tinker would be even better because he can just March to counterpush the wave.
Kiting.
well the biggest issue in that bracket is because no one gives a shit to gank alchemist until he gets 6 (and he is exponentially harder to gank with ulti on)
as far as the counters go, anything burst. like wr with deso crit stuff. sven with crit, meepo with eblades etc.
the trick is to tell your supports to rotate mid in that bracket, instead sitting behind carry denying creeps vs no one on lane.
I just played 1 round with alch vs unfair bots to get the machnic and hes so strong with that shit armlet^^
I ended up with 1600gpm without stacks etc(I shared 5 aghs+moon,does that count to gpm?)
But when I was playing I saw my team was poor af(ik bots but..), so maybe you can punish a alch pick in mid game with tower pushing and fighting
Alch can easily lose mid but it is very hard to prevent him from farming just by urself, even if u harass and outcs him mid he can stack spray neutrals and still gets more cuz of greed. Tbh I lose every single game against alch unless im playing a support. Seems like a good pub stomper to me, just don't pick him into AA and you will be fine. I can't think of other good heroes against him, def ls and tinker are not or at least in 4-5.5k games. I'm pretty sure u can't do much as a core to counter him or at least until lategame, u just have to pick AA or something for roaming that is going to ruin his early game
I usually shit all over alch with juggernaut . He eats up all the farm from his team and still does from one onmni slash .
Ask for ganks from ur support, block his camp if posible and draft nicely. or just ban him :D
You have to gank, gank, gank. SB, BH, etc. Viper, a GOOD pudge, and Mirana are hard to lane against.
I just tried picking him mid for the first time after watching top alchi games.It was an ez win.
I am wondering too how to counter him.
Pretty much with Xan said, most dumbasses don't realize how EASY he is to kill over and over at levels 1-5. The supports DO EXACTLY WHAT HE JUST SAID, and pretty much tell you to fuck off, or just ignore you and go back to trilaning against a melee hero.
Most Alchemist are really bad, they all think they can just win a lane by spamming acid, and they expect you to respect them and back off the whole acid duration. They literally over extend ALL THE TIME, why? BECAUSE ACID PUSHES THE LANE FAST, so he's pretty much INSANELY EASY TO GANK IF YOU HAVE A STUN SUPPORT. You can literally ruin his game if supports have good presence in the mid lane without taking too much EXP from the mid. Also, if you have decent amount of regen, good magic nukes/right click damage, and show him you're not scared to walk inside the acid, it really fucks with his head.
currently msot alchemnist i see go armlet into radiance manta, or bm. octarien became way less popular.
All this talk about countering alch in lane lol, 1v1 scenarios manfighting an Alch with faerie fire and stoutshield in his acid is beyond retarded if he decides to trade because you will lose since you draw creep aggro first.
Secondly all this talk about ganks, so your team is competent but not his? Counter ganking is a lot less risky than ganking. Lower risk equal rewards. Alchs also can leave lanes at levels 4-5 for early juggling onto stacks.
It's not an 100% win hero but he's plenty strong in this meta.
People don't bother ganking with alchemist. If you're an alch mid and want help from supports you'd ask them to stack some camps, not gank mid with your acid...
And counter ganking requires a constant presence of mind to react quickly enough to mid ganks. gl with that in 4k bracket.
Last time I played alch mid I went vs ember who had a help from some support once to kill me and then proceeds to destroy me every time I came close.
Alch with soul ring bottle and qb is super fucking squishy, ulti helps but add 1 more disabler/nuker and you're toast.
Took me a few failed banks as a support to cement it in my head to never bother ganking mid for my alchemist cuz it fails every time ^ . Suppose you gotta stack to help him like u said . I usually like playing aggressive supports so that's kinda lame .
If it weren't for bounty runes he wouldn't go mid. But that rune itself makes the hero broken.
^ lol, no.
Many Alchemists with soul ring don't even bother with runes, this applies all the way up to 7k.
????? Don't bother with free gold?
Not sure what you're smoking, but I want some.
There's 2k free gold in first 15 minutes up for grabs, I don't know what alchemists you have in mind but sure as hell they aren't good if they "don't bother" with it. It's not like you can't spare 15 seconds to walk to the rune lmfao.
I'm actually really intrigued right now. Who are these mid alchemist players that don't bother taking bounty runes, please do share.
open first page of dota and half of the games have an Alchemist in them.
I am not talking about first rune....its the subsequent runes they are not contesting. Even saw a bounty rune sitting there for two whole minutes without anyone taking it in one of the qualifier matches yesterday.
lol not saying you shouldn't but it is what it is. maybe i just ran into a bunch of idiots? but they are 7k and I am not
And I'm asking you who are those 7k players?
Names please.
Could also link a game, I'd love to see some 7k us players ignoring bounties.
chinese qualifier.....might be vg vs ehome...wr vs alchemy mid, wr took two bounty runes within 5 seconds because the prior one wasn't even picked up after 1:50
that i do remember...rest are just some random pubs
Some context you got there.
It's like me saying farming woods with meepo because I cba farming on safe lane, disregarding the fact axe lich and viper are offlaning on my safe lane.
i gave you enough info for you to find the game....if you are curious enough, which seems you are, you can go find the game yourself and watch the replay...
why should i be bothered to find the game?
Because you're claiming stuff which I'm claiming it's nonsense.
Allow me to quote what you said
"Many Alchemists" (implying its a norm)
"with soul ring" (implying it somehow matters they have a soul ring)
"don't even bother with runes" (implying its not worth taking)
"this applies all the way up to 7k." (again implying "everyone does it", good players too)
One swallow does not make a spring.
lol its a forum...you express your OPINIONS....you are not here to win a rebuttal. i expressed what i want to say....i have no obligation to prove anything to you.
many - as in many games i watched
soul ring - no bottle. you don't build both, you just don't.
doesn't bother - i know what i saw
7k - i am pretty sure i can read xxxx mmr average correctly
Pick a mid that can zone alche and shit over alch so he cannot even touch creep such as : invoker , OD (6.86 ver) , Viper , Huskar . and push tower like crazy and give no space at all (invoker and huskar speciality at this)
source : play a lot huskar vs alche mid, with orb walk i do not even alche let touch one creep without 3 stack of burning spear and taking rax at 20 - 30 minutes
example : https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2328662525
alche force up to buy a cheap farming item like BF , and my KDA is not the best but i end the game early with 7,4 k damage
You don't get bottle and soul ring together?
Yeah, I'm actually positive you never played with a 7k player either. Good stuff.
Definitely opinion worth considering.
the highest ranked game I can find right now with an alchemist in it is 5.6k
player id: 94281932
i see the soul ring, where is the bottle?
wannabe 7k confirmed
Swallows, springs.
Still waiting you to show me that non existing game you saw, because i cant find it anywhere.
Should have not bothered replying when you said "many" "dont bother", dead giveaway you got no clue what youre talking bout.
sano, It doesnt matter, its infinite mana for a spray and he gets that gold back in like a minute. You can go without it, you can get it too, doesnt matter. Saw some get it, others skip it. Dudes just focusing on that so people wouldnt laugh about no bounty nonsense.
LOL.....
look at you go.
its vg vs ehome, wr and alchemist...i am sure its hard as fuck to find
i am done here
Alchemist needs a simple nerf: lower the acid spray AOE a little and make Goblins Greed don't work on his illusions.
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I have been playing against a lot of Alchemist mids lately in 4.5k. It seems to be that Alchemist loses mid but then still gets out of control with rad manta octarine. Any counters? Any tips on how I can do it myself?