"If you practiced you would do better, but not as much as you might think. You would run into a skillcap. If you really put effort into it you would realize in time that you actually cannot farm like Beesa, like pro carries no matter how much you practice and no matter how hard you try."
Can I get a source on this? I would really like to read more about this statement.
You are right, Murs. Its much easier with some heroes than others. But even a weak csing hero like a naga can get almost every lasthit under tower if the timing is perfect. Sometimes a lasthit two or under tower is actually impossible on the first few waves if your build is low dmg and the hero starting dmg is terrible.
But if you watch the replay, there is nearly always a tenth of a sec to a half sec window where it would have worked. The only way it could be impossible is when your dmg is below 60...and even if its only in the 50s you can still mostly likely get the lasthit (in math anyway)
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Troll the source is the reality of human physical limitations. I know these things from long years of experience watching and training athletes and musicians. I am very old.
Relentless... I want something that proves you're right. That proves that your statement is right. That proves that, for example, I can't get better than some other dota player.
What is Beesa's average reaction time? How much weight does he lift during his bi-ceps curls? Does he have good form, performing those curls? What is his maximum amount of push-ups, as of now and what will be his absolute maximum number of consecutive push ups? Exactly how fast can he run 100m if he starts training right this second for 6 months?
I have played against, had to lane against.... Murs, Fear, 1437, Demon, Aui_2000, ixmike88, Eosin....these come to mind anyway...I know there are more. All of them are far better than me and kicked my butt in the lane and in the game in general...just like Doomix crushed Vaikiss this week. But no you are wrong. I have played against tier 1 pro level players.
But I can judge talent far better from replays. There is way to much going on in a game to get more than a general sense of things.
Also...fail troll. Ask a more interesting troll question, sorry.
i can watch replays from any of those players and point out 20+ mistakes or suboptimal plays of them every game but so could they themselves, too
that doesn't mean anything
if you had any understanding about what dota 2 is about you wouldn't say shit like beesa is probably better at farming than burning based on replays of pub games compared to his competitive games
crushed vaikiss ? i was playing alone as solo luna vs skywrath with random gold
wanna try that matchup vs me il crush u even harder (u will also have leecher aa who will single pull so u can get harrased by bunch of creeps under ur tower + spammed for first spell of skywrath)
Yeah i saw that game. It sucked. Doomix outplayed you so badly you have to leave the lane to jungle at level 3. AA was good, just not good enough. He also got severely outplayed by Doomix. You two did not communicate at all. You could have killed him at level 1, but you hit creeps instead. AA almost died.
I understand that you are some sort of 1v1 champion Vaikiss. I would not be suprised if you could beat me, maybe 7 or even 8/10 1 v1 matches but its irrelevant. Its obvious you are faster and more accurate at clicking things than I am...so you would win 1v1. There wasn't that easier? 3rd time I think I had to validate you that way now...you need to find a way to feel more real confidence and less fake macho crap.
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Pancakes if you had any ability to judge talent you would agree that Beesa is one of the absolute best at lasthitting in the world. But mostly likely you just have not even watched him.
i dont think u should necessarily take what relentless says literally, think moreso in the general concept of what he is saying
beesa is certainly not better than burning, this is obvious. however he is a very good carry player. it's not a far stretch to say that if he joined a team he may eventually be at the same level as burning with practice and experience. becoming as good as a pro player on a top team takes not only team practice and training, but also solid mechanics, decision-making, and knowledge, the latter of which beesa does have.
he acts like it took superhuman reflexes and perfect genes to be able to play dota 2 professionally
there are actually a shitton of players talented enough to play competitive dota given the right circumstances to be at least at the level of teams like power rangers, 4FC or some of the teams competing in the American dota league
the hardest thing is to actually find like minded people and make the commitment to actually form a team with serious ambitions
Yes, Murs understood...some people are just intentionally obtuse.
And Pancakes is certainly correct about the pro players in general. There are thousands of pub players as good as the people currently on the weaker pro teams.
...Vaikiiss you could have killed him for FB easily at level 1 if you had helped. But you just left AA to die.
Honestly, if that had been my luna, Doomix would have died for FB at level 1 because I pay attention to what supports are doing. Watch your replay...maybe you don't even know what happened.
There is a huge difference from playing pubs and playing competitive @Relentless. Those thousands of players you mention most likely have to train for a long time before they will be able to even stand a chance against "weaker pro teams". They may have the mechanics down already but there is so much more to DotA than that.
cs isnt important its about kills and knowing when to gank so that you can gain more levels and have control of the map tunnel visioning creeps isnt how you win a game I dont know why relentless is trying to encourage csing for 10 mins that time is usually when the first wave of ganks happens which can lead to your tower being destroyed
...I'm not trying to encourage 10 min of csing. It's rarely a good plan in a pub game.
Man still you guys just don't want to understand. This is a way to take a look at how lastting factors into the decision of how to set up your lanes for comparing different plans...like How does jungle-ancients Medusa compare to XYZ set up? You need to consider how many creeps your carry can really get if you do such and such.
Realistically, even if you completely protect it, only the very best farmers will get over 70 of the first 80 lasthits. You won't have someone like that on your team. From someone truly excellent at a pub level (lets say Vaikiss) we can probably expect about 60 lasthits at 10 min.
From some player you are likely to have playing carry on whoevers pub team 40-50 is realistic for free farm.
IF you want to compare that to the ancient killing setup (265 gpm avg) 5cs/min is 200 gpm. So which one is better? Well if you can't get at least 65 of the first 80 lasthits the farm is faster at the ancients...and the xpm is higher. And in a real game, your carry is not going to get 65 of the first 80 lasthits. But...your solo laning semi-carry can still get maybe 30-40 of them while Medusa takes the ancient farm on top of that. If you have a jungling support you are looking at a lot faster farm and xp gain early game.
So since the gpm and xpm gain for the team is clearly faster with an ancient camper...the question then becomes is it too hard to defend the farm at the ancient stack compared to the tri-safelane farm. And that will depend on which heroes and picked and how you plan to deal with warding and counter warding.
You wouldn't...people of equal skill to those teams would still take several months.
It is hard to get people together and get noticed. But its possible --- just look what Denial (former Artyk) did in about 2 months. You can really see the difference between them and...another SA team Pain.gaming, who have been around forever but never win because they just are not talented enough. In fact Denial's very first pro tournament game was kicking Pain's butt. If you do manage to get a group with real talent together that can work together, it doesn't take too long to succeed.
@Pancakes, u kidding right?
Do u see the ping shit above at right side?
It's clearly written 217
And only practice games have 0 ping, lobby games don't..
im not saying i can get perfect cs with that shit that's like 50 times harder than the perfect cs am shit i did
and everyone can fake screenshots you can just buy a rapier and then drop it before you take the shot
i like playing viper void am and syllabear safe lane because i can almost always get high 60s or 70+ at 10 minutes
i think its more of a hero thing than a skill thing
"If you practiced you would do better, but not as much as you might think. You would run into a skillcap. If you really put effort into it you would realize in time that you actually cannot farm like Beesa, like pro carries no matter how much you practice and no matter how hard you try."
Can I get a source on this? I would really like to read more about this statement.
You are right, Murs. Its much easier with some heroes than others. But even a weak csing hero like a naga can get almost every lasthit under tower if the timing is perfect. Sometimes a lasthit two or under tower is actually impossible on the first few waves if your build is low dmg and the hero starting dmg is terrible.
But if you watch the replay, there is nearly always a tenth of a sec to a half sec window where it would have worked. The only way it could be impossible is when your dmg is below 60...and even if its only in the 50s you can still mostly likely get the lasthit (in math anyway)
--------------------
Troll the source is the reality of human physical limitations. I know these things from long years of experience watching and training athletes and musicians. I am very old.
you probably need really good map awareness when you got wards and 5 people with voice communication
but that you actually think you can judge talent while you've probably never seen a remotely competent player in your games is kind of laughable
Relentless... I want something that proves you're right. That proves that your statement is right. That proves that, for example, I can't get better than some other dota player.
What is Beesa's average reaction time? How much weight does he lift during his bi-ceps curls? Does he have good form, performing those curls? What is his maximum amount of push-ups, as of now and what will be his absolute maximum number of consecutive push ups? Exactly how fast can he run 100m if he starts training right this second for 6 months?
Amaze me.
I have played against, had to lane against.... Murs, Fear, 1437, Demon, Aui_2000, ixmike88, Eosin....these come to mind anyway...I know there are more. All of them are far better than me and kicked my butt in the lane and in the game in general...just like Doomix crushed Vaikiss this week. But no you are wrong. I have played against tier 1 pro level players.
But I can judge talent far better from replays. There is way to much going on in a game to get more than a general sense of things.
Also...fail troll. Ask a more interesting troll question, sorry.
If you cannot answer the question or do not understand it, it's better to let me know than to try to avoid it.
i feel sorry for you relentless u seem like nice guy but srsly fucked in the forehead - delusional>9000
i can watch replays from any of those players and point out 20+ mistakes or suboptimal plays of them every game but so could they themselves, too
that doesn't mean anything
if you had any understanding about what dota 2 is about you wouldn't say shit like beesa is probably better at farming than burning based on replays of pub games compared to his competitive games
crushed vaikiss ? i was playing alone as solo luna vs skywrath with random gold
wanna try that matchup vs me il crush u even harder (u will also have leecher aa who will single pull so u can get harrased by bunch of creeps under ur tower + spammed for first spell of skywrath)
Yeah i saw that game. It sucked. Doomix outplayed you so badly you have to leave the lane to jungle at level 3. AA was good, just not good enough. He also got severely outplayed by Doomix. You two did not communicate at all. You could have killed him at level 1, but you hit creeps instead. AA almost died.
I understand that you are some sort of 1v1 champion Vaikiss. I would not be suprised if you could beat me, maybe 7 or even 8/10 1 v1 matches but its irrelevant. Its obvious you are faster and more accurate at clicking things than I am...so you would win 1v1. There wasn't that easier? 3rd time I think I had to validate you that way now...you need to find a way to feel more real confidence and less fake macho crap.
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Pancakes if you had any ability to judge talent you would agree that Beesa is one of the absolute best at lasthitting in the world. But mostly likely you just have not even watched him.
i dont think u should necessarily take what relentless says literally, think moreso in the general concept of what he is saying
beesa is certainly not better than burning, this is obvious. however he is a very good carry player. it's not a far stretch to say that if he joined a team he may eventually be at the same level as burning with practice and experience. becoming as good as a pro player on a top team takes not only team practice and training, but also solid mechanics, decision-making, and knowledge, the latter of which beesa does have.
he acts like it took superhuman reflexes and perfect genes to be able to play dota 2 professionally
there are actually a shitton of players talented enough to play competitive dota given the right circumstances to be at least at the level of teams like power rangers, 4FC or some of the teams competing in the American dota league
the hardest thing is to actually find like minded people and make the commitment to actually form a team with serious ambitions
Yes, Murs understood...some people are just intentionally obtuse.
And Pancakes is certainly correct about the pro players in general. There are thousands of pub players as good as the people currently on the weaker pro teams.
im not even gonna argue with u cuz ur obviously brain dead what does outplay has to do with that match ?
random gold skywrath vs luna that has single set of tangoes and russian aa who doesnt give a fuck about that game
if spamming first spell of skywrath = outplaying someone then im best dota player in the world
...Vaikiiss you could have killed him for FB easily at level 1 if you had helped. But you just left AA to die.
Honestly, if that had been my luna, Doomix would have died for FB at level 1 because I pay attention to what supports are doing. Watch your replay...maybe you don't even know what happened.
i saw exactlee what happend there then i realised that hes retarded and didint gave a fuck about him till the end of the game
or i did that the momment when he randomed can't decide between those 2 things
There is a huge difference from playing pubs and playing competitive @Relentless. Those thousands of players you mention most likely have to train for a long time before they will be able to even stand a chance against "weaker pro teams". They may have the mechanics down already but there is so much more to DotA than that.
cs isnt important its about kills and knowing when to gank so that you can gain more levels and have control of the map tunnel visioning creeps isnt how you win a game I dont know why relentless is trying to encourage csing for 10 mins that time is usually when the first wave of ganks happens which can lead to your tower being destroyed
first wave of ganks happens on 6 minute cuz then wards expire
...I'm not trying to encourage 10 min of csing. It's rarely a good plan in a pub game.
Man still you guys just don't want to understand. This is a way to take a look at how lastting factors into the decision of how to set up your lanes for comparing different plans...like How does jungle-ancients Medusa compare to XYZ set up? You need to consider how many creeps your carry can really get if you do such and such.
Realistically, even if you completely protect it, only the very best farmers will get over 70 of the first 80 lasthits. You won't have someone like that on your team. From someone truly excellent at a pub level (lets say Vaikiss) we can probably expect about 60 lasthits at 10 min.
From some player you are likely to have playing carry on whoevers pub team 40-50 is realistic for free farm.
IF you want to compare that to the ancient killing setup (265 gpm avg) 5cs/min is 200 gpm. So which one is better? Well if you can't get at least 65 of the first 80 lasthits the farm is faster at the ancients...and the xpm is higher. And in a real game, your carry is not going to get 65 of the first 80 lasthits. But...your solo laning semi-carry can still get maybe 30-40 of them while Medusa takes the ancient farm on top of that. If you have a jungling support you are looking at a lot faster farm and xp gain early game.
So since the gpm and xpm gain for the team is clearly faster with an ancient camper...the question then becomes is it too hard to defend the farm at the ancient stack compared to the tri-safelane farm. And that will depend on which heroes and picked and how you plan to deal with warding and counter warding.
u wouldnt have to train very long to be better than 4fc or powerrangers or iccup
like a week maybe or something
You wouldn't...people of equal skill to those teams would still take several months.
It is hard to get people together and get noticed. But its possible --- just look what Denial (former Artyk) did in about 2 months. You can really see the difference between them and...another SA team Pain.gaming, who have been around forever but never win because they just are not talented enough. In fact Denial's very first pro tournament game was kicking Pain's butt. If you do manage to get a group with real talent together that can work together, it doesn't take too long to succeed.
talent is bullshit
that's obvious. there's only hard work and dedication.
^ 100%
there's TCM vs GT-Multi coming up soon
how many months/years would 5 burnings need to have a chance against these teams?
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578993823893345919/6B3DBB0112FD50154A786A8D32322EE0D05CF499/
one day u guys will be this good
^ Beesa's lane was pushed, so bad
and he missed one
what a player
^I thought they were 80 creeps and not 79
anyways, I tried same challenge with cm no items, I got 65 last hits, 27 denies, why? because ping was between 210 and 240
But with gd ping I might get some where around 73
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/630785219596957616/669ABCF9C73546C5D0B8DD37EC86C19B0B555F50/
no you dont have any delay
games like that are hosted on your pc -->ping=0
how the fuck does vaikiss keep talking like hes good
didnt i slam him on his best hero 2-0 in 5 minutes
dotabuff.com i suppose
@Pancakes, u kidding right?
Do u see the ping shit above at right side?
It's clearly written 217
And only practice games have 0 ping, lobby games don't..
that doesnt mean shit i just played on shanghai host with 400 ping and i can cs with cm like no problem
the ping doesn't mean anything
? mason you can't even cs properly and as you can see in this game valkiss'469 is the best farmer in eu+china
http://dotabuff.com/matches/96217881
get us screenshots, use some server that has a ping of 200+ for u, and try the challenge, and get us screenshots
im not saying i can get perfect cs with that shit that's like 50 times harder than the perfect cs am shit i did
and everyone can fake screenshots you can just buy a rapier and then drop it before you take the shot
Agree about that, but I didn't :D
But I am sure in ur deeps u know that someone can't cs at less than 100 ping like when having 200+ ping
mason unlike u i atlest can get more than 8 cs in 5 mins lol
How does that change the fact that you lost?
how does it change the fact that it was 4 am ?
How butthurt are you from a scale 1-10?
why would i be butthurt lol cuz some noob got lucky and won game while i was sleepy ?
i think it's pretty sad to try to save face if you get bodied 2-0 in 5 minutes.
what do u say relentless, does mason have potential to last hit like beesa?
105 cs with SF (first attempt with SF), relentless pls sponsor me
there is 2150gpm with sniper global record CHECKDAMAGEDONE 175 kills 24 mins.
you must be very proud