General Discussion

General DiscussionYou can't improve if you don't play with good players

You can't improve if you don't play with good players in General Discussion
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    This is just a thread to share my opinion on DOTA 2. you cannot be good unless you actually play with good players. you cannot learn/improve if you play with your own skill level everygame everyday. so isuggest find friends that are good at DOTA and learn from them.

    Lex

      Sorry but this is utter bullshit. Better players will just carry you because they will make up for your mistakes. At your level you have to make up for other people mistakes. Thats when you grind. Only playing solo makes you a better player. Thats exactly why MMR was so inflated a year ago. People had like 2k solo and 4k party and Ancient medal, while they were still on Archont level. Then came a HUUGE suprise when they got Archont in new calibration.

      I can put 10 examples of my archont-legend friends that play with people on much higher mmr and they are stuck in their mmr since forever with +/- 500 mmr variance !

      People in majority are bad learners and even worse teachers. You would have to be that 1 lucky guy that is actually willing to learn something from your friend and that friend is capable of giving away his knowledge in a precise and soft manner so you can understand it and implement it in your games without ereasing him from your friends list when he points out every mistake you do. 99% of the time it does not happen. You just queue together in party, you play support OFC because you would tilt them playing core role and you just follow their leadership often not being able to keep up the tempo. It does not make you better in any way apart from noticing later on that your solo q teamates are horrible comparing to them. But guess what ? You're one of them.

      What made me grind from A3 to Div 3 last season was just by watching Speed guides on youtube. My boi Speed is a really good teacher and explains everything in the tiniest detail.

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      Kowareta

        lol?

        Kowareta

          Agree with lex
          Reading lex spells archon as archont remindes me my grandma :D

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            @lex i respect your opinion, i think everyone has different ways to learn. My opinion was from my personal experience and i don't think its bullshit. Anyways. either way you will still learn from them - make it youtube videos or friends. Just be a good listener, learn and adapt.

            Kowareta

              Can u at least post it with your main account so ppl see how effective it was?

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                sadly. I can't recover my main account. last time i played was way back 2017 - div 1 with 5.1k. im just playing coz of this pandemic. and tried posting in forums again.

                TripleSteal-

                  You learn by watching better people play, but if you are playing with them, pretty much all you notice is that somehow they find good positions in a fight and have more farm at any point of the game than you would have. Spectating with or without player's perspective and replays are far more useful.

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                    when i was new to DOTA - DOTA 1 my mentors always let me play carry and offlane and teach me all the positionings and such. even in games when we have bets. coz i live in the PH and betting in games was popular back then in dota 1

                    PMX

                      @Lex @Dogreta : Say suppose you are a college level soccer player, you are not gifted with natural talent but want to be the best or one of the best. You dont have money to get buy a personal coach and your college soccer team well sucks. What do you do now?

                      Kowareta

                        well you are living in senpai land as a beta male. of course on SEA ppl tend to coach others specially their friends, of course ppl tend to listen and obey as soft males on SEA. as you go west from the east ppl are more cucky and try to pretend like an alpha. nobody like to coach others or listen! they have their own ideas and they stuck at archon cause of 50% forced winrate.
                        on SEA ppl behave like they are siblings.

                        Lex

                          Y there might be cultural factors around it depending on server.

                          Kowareta

                            @Dylan
                            were not in same page. Im not a soccer player, i cant answer your question. As a newbee dota player u might think playing with better players will improve your skill for obvious reasons. Myself thought its good too when i started playing this game.
                            But its not like that. Im the person never ever cried about smurfs. I only cried over dogs. A smurf is the exact example of this method, a person who is better in your games. But only thing i learned from them "just from playing with them" was u can win on your own if u be better and only thing i learned from "just playing against them" was they are not that good.
                            If i want to learn visage, playing at my rank isnt efficient i need to play on 2k mmr lower than my main. Why? Cause i will get punished too hard for being bad. Playing at 4k mmr lower isnt efficient either. Why? Cause i wont get punished at all.
                            Its like gym, if u go for heavy ones u break your arm, if u go for light ones it doesnt make u any stronger. You should push your limits slowly

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                            Kowareta

                              Just look at examples, do u think account buyers getting better at game because they playing with better players? Hell no. Did kabir get better by making accounts over and over and calibrate at anshit? Hell no. I shocked when i read tyski analysis about his gameplay. The guy cant even lasthit against guardians :/

                              Nineo_oSix

                                people normally are just zombie moding dota 2 to waste time. They arent really there to learn anything. Go through the motions and clear through the game. It doesnt matter who or what they playing against or with. I think what you are looking for is the word adapting. You can adapt to things whether you are with bad players or good players. Trust me you will not learn anything if you are suddenly thrown into a few high immortal games and you watch as EE destroy his items while you sit in your fountain waiting to end. You might however learn if you go back and watch the replay and see what people did to get to that point.

                                PMX

                                  When OP play with better players , he didnt mean let better players carry you. What he meant was play and ask them what to doto win the game and how to take objectives. Its a simple fucking logic , idk why u morons have to downput that so fucking badly. More than true its fucking obvious.. Also its fucking applicable to every field in this world and most probably others too if they exist.
                                  -> How do you get good at football? -> PLay with ppl better than you , learn from them , ask them a few questions and wew you have figured it out.
                                  -> How do you get good at chess? -> Play with better players , figure out some strats and wew ur better than before. You may not be top 1% or something but you just got better, its fucking obvious.
                                  -> How do you get good at cooking -> Watch some videos of chefs who know how to cook, how to cut the vegetables and chicken right, how long to boil the chicken or watever. and darn you learnt something new you're better now at cook.

                                  Wait whats the next step now? -> Its fucking obvious , just learn a few more tricks everyday to get better and you get better. Learn it from people better than you at the art , you get better.

                                  What do people in 4-5k mmrs learn from watching replays of pros -> they try to comprehend the reasons for the pro players decisions in game and farming / warding whatever. Now a 2-3k player cant comprehend everything of those replays by himself so go play with someone better to learn from him and darn , you learnt some new tricks. Now you are better atleast strategy wise. Mechanical skills though is either a gift or you need to practise a lot for it. Matchups though comes from experience or it can come way faster if you have a really sharp brain and you are using that proactively while playing dota.

                                  Soultrap

                                    DOTA is not like quantum physics, there is nothing to learn. Some people simply have quicker reactions, so they win more often.

                                    Kowareta

                                      I strongly suggest you to take an IQ test to get estimation of your place among others so you be careful next time using term "moron".
                                      Im not even bothering myself arguing with you. Its totally pointless cause you are totally stupid. U cant even notice every thing u say is kind of "getting a coach" =))
                                      Specially the chess one is the gold, if i as a guy who played chess less than 5 times in his whole life, play with a grandmaster i can learn chess when he checkmates me in 3 moves. Mindblowing

                                      PMX

                                        Wow now you assume to play with someone better than you meaning playing with a grandmaster. Good going.
                                        Also play with a friend better than you = getting a coach??

                                        Kowareta

                                          Dude u have 0 logic.
                                          Op says ppl who are good at dota. Which means atleast immortal+ rights? Im not following chess but arent grandmasters like immortals in dota?
                                          I mean if the guy cant even checkmates newbee like me in less than 5 moves, he is not a good chess player in first place, right?

                                          Playing with friends is not getting a coach but u are asking for tips from them which means u are asking for coach.so its sort of getting a coach when u open your mouth and ask questions or they tell you what is the right thing. Its so fucking simple i dont know what is wrong with u.

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                                          Lex

                                            I dont know Dylan. Kowareta is not even shitposting as he used to do but give away strong arguments. Yet you want to add something.

                                            The strongest imo argument is that acc buyers dont learn. You need a friend that will calmly coach you for you to understand. I dont know what you are trying to prove.

                                            PMX

                                              @Kowreta :
                                              I cant believe a guy who spams Chen to immortal bracket cant understand simple logic or you're just pretending or something..
                                              Grandmasters are not like immortals in dota omfg, grandmasters in chess are like TI winners atleast.

                                              I mean if you guys cant comprehend or some shit , what I am trying to say is :-
                                              If some low mmr player wants to get good at dota quickly , instead of spending thousand of hrs playing solo and figure out the entire game in snail pace just play with some friends who are already BETTER than you. Better I mean the next bracket or two, Im not fucking telling a herald needs to play with Rank 1 to learn dota.

                                              Btw just a question to you Kowareta if you dont mind : What are your interests besides dota and the occassional trolling on DB?

                                              Kowareta

                                                dude if u had any understanding, i explained to u im not following chess as sport and by grandmasters i meant ppl who can stomp me like an ez for not just once but several times.

                                                u said YOU ARE NOT USING A FUCKING COACH MAN. if u are watching videos, if u are asking friends help, if u use in game guides, u are USING A FUCKING COACH. whats the matter with you? u think its not getting coached cause u are not paying them? fucking brainless ape!

                                                nothing interests me anymore currently, i just waste my time till i die.

                                                PMX

                                                  Its just sad that you are disturbed in this wonderful world man. Hope things get better for you I guess
                                                  From when did asking friends for tips and using ingame guides become same as hiring a pro/semi-pro coach? Rofl Lmao.. Hahaha
                                                  Have you ever been coached by a professional in anything in your life? Are you that naive or something?

                                                  Kowareta

                                                    :DDD
                                                    i mean i shouldnt be insecure about my judgement and stop talking to you when i realized u are retarded. its my fault actually.
                                                    just enjoy living in a wonderful world reading gods and angels tails and leave me alone in reality.

                                                    Gongaga

                                                      OP poorly phrased a good idea though. Playing with people who are bad will mold you into the type of player who does the same things that those people and playing with people who are good or at least decent will at least give you some good habits while playing.
                                                      Like, why am I on this lane, what is this team composition lacking, who is doing the biggest damage, who is killing our supports, can we lock them down? do I need to positionate better?
                                                      There's a difference between playing ranked solo to improve yourself as a player and just starting out and taking bad habits from people and just learning out stuff for yourself from scratch. It takes an inmense amount of time to understand a lot of stuff and even more to apply it. Plus, dota is not begginner friendly (at least on terms of game design, there's a lot of content out there).

                                                      If you want to use a metaphor, consider it growing up with a certain type of parents who form you into good habits and parents who simply tell you to smoke or eat whatever the fuck you want.

                                                      AD.GokU™ | Repeat.gg

                                                        If you REALLY want to improve at dota, there's infinite learning resources available.
                                                        Playing with better players might work, but most of time the dopamine from winning is gonna make you ignore all the bad plays you make, and the better player will be more focused on their own game to bother, and if you keep losing, the better person is gonna stop playing with you in most cases.
                                                        Simplest way to improve is
                                                        1) Acknowledge that you suck.
                                                        2) Watch your LOSING game replays and try to see why you lost.(and in this scenario you can find a better player to watch that replay with you and help you if he has the time)
                                                        3) Understand that Dota is a real-time strategy game- you have to adapt to in game changes, don't be like the guy who picks p5 sniper rushing aghs every game regardless of lineups, cause there's a youtube video that shows "scep sniper is bRoKeN".

                                                        Lex

                                                          ^ Exactly

                                                          Dylan just argue to argue. Everything has been said in first couple of posts and he STILL writes that playing with someone better will help you. It wont unless you are in super lucky to play with talented guy that has spare time to teach you in a calm manner.

                                                          I mean WHY the fuck do we have to discuss anything with an idiot.

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                                                          Dota not fun

                                                            Dota isn't fully a "Play More Learn More" game. I improved in Dota MOSTLY by theorycrafting, revising plays, watching tutorials and pro games.
                                                            Lots of people are stuck in their MMR because they believe "Practice makes perfect" but Dota is a complex game, you can't practice what you haven't learn.
                                                            You can't learn from other players during the game too because you can't see from their perspective. And you certainly can't expect everyone to find a GOOD friend who can teach you patiently.

                                                            .
                                                            .

                                                              every immortal friend that i have who played with me was on smurf acc and fucking annoying to play with cause they think only since main is immortal win in ancient and divine is 4 free and then when lose easy blame teammates and the ones who arent like this dont create smurfs cause they not small dick. i rather learn by watching streamers and select hero in viewtab if i wanted to learn a hero. also grind solo mmr. much better than learning from friends cause u can use your own brain.

                                                              Dreadnought325

                                                                There is nothing wrong playing with better friends, nothing wrong with OP posts. That's cos either we learn from ourselves, or learn from people who are better than us. If you are divine, you cant learn much from archon, but if you are archon, you can learn some things from divine. It is like, you build shadow blade in guardian and your opponent does not buy any sentries or dust, then you go up to legend and you buy shadow blade again and got countered by those items.

                                                                Dreadnought325

                                                                  Those people are just preventing you from spoiling others games in higher mmr. However if you want to learn fast, then you should be aiming higher.

                                                                  PMX

                                                                    If you want to learn the game fast, play with your friends who are better than you and ask them for strategies item choices , tips etc. Play with people whom you consider to be good and you will learn. Some of my friends taught me tricks about creep aggo , lane control which you can mainly understand well if you watch bsj guides in detail or from good friends.

                                                                    slowly losing my mind

                                                                      u understand the games better if u play with better players as long you are willing to learn..most low mmr players doesnt abuse cooldowns,creep aggro,buying regens to sustain in lane..night time smoke..target priority and securing runes..placing deep wards and the importance of clearing and pushing waves..in a way you can learn this through playing with high mmr friends or just watch some highly competitive dota like pro games or high mmr games..for anyone to improve is you need to apply what you learn in your own games..and its hard at first but it becomes like a reflex as you play more and more games..

                                                                      WHY IS THIS SHIT SO RIGGED

                                                                        OP I partially agree. It's not that you only improve by playing with better players, I guess some people learn through analyzing replays or watching guides or simply stacking games and experience, but playing with those who are better is actually VERY helpful. I went through it. Played all my normal games in zombie mode, like the guy above said, and learnt only when climbing in ranked by facing brackets that were better and better, noticing the differences, the increased overall efficiency and mechanical skills of the other 9 players and adapting/learning. I'm talking about a slow, constant challenge like that of climbing, but I don't think suddenly playing with people way above your level would be of any help cause the skill gap would be too much for you to do, let alone learn, anything. I've seen this also with people I played with who were a couple ks mmr below and that wouldn't stop feeding or making the same mistakes over and over. In that case I think your brain would just go in zombie mode again cause it wouldn't be able to keep up with everything and subconsciously give up, hoping to get carried or not caring about winning at all, aware of the huge skill gap.

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