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Tyrannical Cancer

    ayy hooman too nooob

    guuz

      what we should learn from the AI is that we should let our supports farm as well as our carries and that nobody should afk jungle

      in other words... everyone should farm, but everyone should also prioritize taking objects or getting kills over farming in all stages of the game

      so, stop tilting like a bitch if your support took your farm because thats exactly what he should be doing

      maybe we should not divide players into supports and cores after all

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      MM.Ugh Brock Hall

        Pure speculation here, but it seems like maintaining a consistent net worth and xp value across all heroes mitigates the potential to die, meaning you can commit a little more. However, it means you have to rely more heavily on everyone focusing the correct targets, chain your stuns better, etc. Similar to the six million dollar slam, if you know you can pull it off, you have little to lose. The AI can rely more on coordination than we can, so what it perceives as weakness is a little opposite. It kind of feels like a left field greed strat.

        Forgant

          No any tier 1 teams playing against OpenAI only tier 2 as Og and Alliance, against them should play some VP, VG, Liquid, Secret, EG, maybe they can win.

          S_Borealis

            For me the biggest takeaway from watching the two games is that the AI isn't selfish. If a TP rotation is needed they do it immediately - no hesitation. They don't take a millisecond to kill that last creep. If they need a ward or dust, they'll buy it - they had Gyro and Sven in the same lane (the offlane, no less). Neither functioned as a traditional support, and OG had a Riki on their team: the number one rule when playing against a Riki is to have wards and dust. Riki caused some headaches for OpenAI early on, but the AI played so hyper-aggressively right from the start that Riki never really got anywhere. He struggled to get pick-offs because the AI was never alone for more than a few seconds.

            Muyurzracle

              @guuz speaks the truth

              miC

                @forgant hahahahaha, everyone knows OG is better than EG of those teams at least

                your dad

                  @guuz Then why do all pro teams favor having a pos 6 support in the current meta with the exception of NP pos 5? There simply is not enough farm on the map for everyone to take it. Of course a core player should allow his support to farm the lane if there is an upcoming important item that is 200 gold away but in general the reason why one hero is a support and another a core is its ability to scale with items. For example: an Oracle, Warlock, Silencer, Disruptor (with the exception of AGHS, which is a game changer) with or without items are basically the same. A TB, PL or even something with earlier timings like Lycan/Razor needs items to be effective and get exponentially stronger with them.
                  I think these OpenAI do not give us too much of information due to limited hero pool and the lack of human factor on one side of the team (no hype, no tilt, no despair), so they should not be given as an example of how the game should be approached, especially in a PUB environment.

                  _Ryzo_

                    MENTALLY EXHAUSTED is exactlly right, tiny hero pool is like playing a different game.

                    Chacaceiro

                      It would be interesting to note about last hits in the laning stage: are they focused on cores or supports?

                      RVRV

                        im not good at this game but one thing for sure, AI supports do farm!

                        Shtirlitz

                          This unfolding of future now sends me shivers. I'm scared of humans using AI to kill, opress, spy, segregate and more and more. With each milestone passed.

                          guuz

                            @mentally exhausted Thats why I said everyone should farm but also prioritize taking objects and killing over farming.

                            You farm on the way to your object/kill, you farm until your teammates arrive, you farm while you push. Basically you just farm on your way to your next goal.

                            So it doesnt matter if you didnt farm a lot because thats not the reason why you were there to begin with.

                            But indeed even pro players dont play making moves all the time, its much easier to simply have part of your team making moves while your carry farms, because the enemy team wont make enough moves to punish your strategy... Until a well coordinated team like the AI comes in and screws you over for having afk jungles.

                            Viper was the best example of this. In every game humans will choose getting Nethertoxin first for better farming, but the AI prioritize killing over farming so he gets Poison Attack first for the best killing potential. Viper still farmed, but he was focused on making rotations and only farmed in between rotations and thats exactly what we should do.

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                            Tokadub

                              Time to add all the heroes to the Open AI bot pool. If you think about the game of Dota in relation to chess in terms of the amount of possible moves for any given game state, simply adding a dozen heroes to the pool adds millions of variables to any potential game when it comes to AI processing specific scenarios.

                              If the AI can destroy pro teams even with the full hero pool I will be thoroughly impressed. Right now tbh having a 17 hero pool just isn't even close to Dota. The bots aren't considering billions of variables that could occur with the full hero pool available.

                              I don't necessarily doubt they can do it since they are AI after all, but what they are doing right now is nothing compared to actually mastering Dota with all the heroes.

                              I'd be curious to know if the bots have a breaking point where they actually start getting less intelligent (or more noob) per average game because too many variables are present with the full hero pool and the data they use in their algorithm starts to become much less decisive and accurate in terms of their overall game play.

                              Just a theory that could occur... not sure if the current processing power and memory access could limit them in such a way.

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                              Metsis

                                From what I take from this, is the fact that the laning stage of game should be looked into... Even with 2-1-2 lanes, you could send 1 guy from a lane make it 3-1-1 for a gank and then send the lanes 2 guys over to the other lane to make it 1-1-3 and get 2 ganks off in quite a rapid succession... Within a minute or even faster if spell cooldowns permit... And you could then send the original last laner to top to make it 2-1-2 again, essentially swapping the lanes.

                                When I started Dota, I wondered why one lane is "better" than the other and the AI seems to agree with my initial assumption... The same amount of gold and xp walk down each of the lanes...

                                Then again, I am a bottom dweller here... Not much is going to change there... But you higher ups might see more of these changes implemented. I am still waiting on the shit tier item builds reach 2017...

                                Alesseo

                                  @quuz I have to disagree, OpenAI plays the deathball strat only - and yes, in that case a more balanced xp distribution is common, but in normal Dota (full roster available) that just won't work consistently as the only strat (too many heroes that can easily clear waves and hold towers were unavailable to capitalize on it). A single KOTL could quite likely hold the game for long enough that the xp (and gold) difference between the "even farm team" and "classic position 1&2" would become too big to fight against. OpenAI plays on an insane timer that doesn't allow stepping off the gas, which works, as long as there is nothing to stop you - which there is, in normal Dota.

                                  Nemesis

                                    I think alesseo is right. If all heroes were available I don’t think the AI strat works. The limited heroes favor death ball... that’s why it values WD and other heroes that are either early game or provide sustain. I think AI is cool but It still feels kinda MEH because of the restrictions

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                                    Silhouettes

                                      I would be more surprise if human win against bot
                                      Like AlphaGo

                                      god saves us all

                                        well said

                                        mid 1

                                          چیکار کنم رنکم از اول دیواین باز بشه

                                          DSP

                                            I think the opposite. Imagine OpenAI mastering Invoker or Meepo ? With perfect timings and execution, humans have no chance against it.