General DiscussionThe face of dotabuff.com - harsh criticism

He definitely has good points, but the P.S. is a little much. He sounds personally bitter that he's getting his opinion discounted for the 69%. Should have left the P.S. off.

I don't believe Dotabuff was in the wrong with their data-gathering method. They simply automated the process of downloading and parsing replays. Valve still allows players to parse replays for info, so it can't be against the ToS strictly because of that. Dotabuff wasn't selling the raw data, they were selling an analysis. And there are many reputable companies that sell analyses of data for profit.

Should they switch over to the API now that Valve enabled it? Of course, it's the right thing to do. But it will take time to switch over. And it was a bit of a dick move on Valve's part to not give them a chance to switch before limiting/disabling their replay downloads.

@akonnriddick
Same invalid, already negated couple of times reasons, over and over again. Also subtle note of disdain and butthurt. Just standard anti-Dotabuff post.

Dotabuff never gave a thought to people's privacy concerns, they claim they were launching an opt-in privacy feature, I feel it was a lie: because the truth is, they just wanted to steal your information to sell it to their subscribers.

I truly love to be in the middle of everything. I feel like a star. Its not like the owners of dotabuff.com announced on the first day of this update that they will close dotabuff.com (a reaction that only points to the obvious), and miraculously the 3rd day they decided that they had to work on a solution to keep their money coming, and canceled their previous statement. I love how VALVe are the bad guys in this whole deal, its not like they are legally obligated to do this, and its not like this has been their business model in the past, yeah truly unexpected, what chaos, what horror (Team Fortress 2 anyone ??). Its not like they wish to avoid stat hording - whoring, and any rage behavior related to that matter (Heroes of Newerth anyone ??). I've never heard in my life of players noticing improvements in their skill only through stats, and especially through other people's stats (its not like their gameplay is changing, yes ?? , only their stats ??), and I also need to mention the extremely high number of competitive players (everyone wants to be in the International), its not like Dota 2 is a game played for fun (nor has anybody told me the opposite). Oh but wait there's more ! I forgot to mention that I am truly a "butthurt" person (please do excuse the language), because as a dotabuff.com *owner* I set fire to our website and I blamed everything on VALVe, its easy that way, its not like everything out there was pointing legally and historically to this update, oh wait ?? what ??, am I still talking about myself ?? Time tends to fly when you are talking about yourself.
Exaggerated sarcasm aside, as I said in my previous statement, dotabuff.com will not be missed, simply because of their actions and STATEMENT ! I have read announcements from Team Fortress 2 websites that inventory and stats websites of Dota 2 are being worked on, based on the current API (respecting privacy, not selling information, and also respecting fans and VALVe). To the fans of dotabuff.com, continue being ignorant, honestly how blind can you be ?? Seriously, its just beta and you start talking, have you taken in consideration the API that will offer you this information for free (provided someone will work on it, and they will, just like Team Fortress 2 data websites emerged) I don't know what else to say, i've never seen such a reaction from any players of any game, its just stupid and immature, based on nothing, ENRAGED BY THE OWNERS OF A WEBSITE DESIGNED FOR FANS IN ORDER TO GIVE BETTER ACCESS TO FREE INFORMATION (at least that's what I thought when dotabuff.com came out), rage directed to VALVe, how shameless of you, the owners of dotabuff.com disgust me. You deserve your fate, as I have always enjoyed money vampires burn. The smell of victory is sweet.
I agree with @Janie's Got A Gun.

All the privacy and opt out and other bullshit came only after valve changed the settings. Before that there was no mention of any of this and even the DBR was going to be a pay to see feature for other than your own. Dotabuff's way to handling the situation and criticising valve not to mention instigating the community and shutting down its site is childish and should be condemned. If you don't change your methods, manners and policies, I am certain other tracking sites will replace you in no time. Just my 2 cents.

@akonnriddick 'Dotabuff was reverse engineering replay information to data mine it and resell that information. On any given ToS that would be a huge violation, but they didn't have a ToS because this entire system they based their business on was never official and never set in stone.'

https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Demo_Format

Provided by VALVE, and to quote:

'demoinfo2.exe is a tool that will parse Dota 2 demo files (ending in .dem) and dump out every message in the demo. Using this tool, third parties can parse the demo for various game events to generate information and statistics.'

'We are curious to see what people come up with using this tool and please do post questions and comments about it on the Replay section of the Dota 2 Development Forums.'

Can you make a bigger fool of yourself?

@The Oatmeal
Yes they will, that is exactly my point, just look at all the Team Fortress 2 statistics and inventory websites. So many ways of making money without invading people's privacy. The thing is, I would not be acting this way if it was not their actions in the last turn of events. That was horrific and disgusting, leaved a bad taste in my mouth. I enjoy it when people say that VALVe did this to ensure a monopoly, yet Team Fortress 2 has been built under this business model like since the beginning, and so many people make money out of it. Anyway good laughs, the blind reactions of the people on this website (trolls) has made me enjoy this subject. Even though it started like a drama, it ended up with no good arguments.
@jams
Ignorance is bliss they say. Do you see Dota 2 being worked on by hundreds of people ?? Its beta, calm down dotabuff.com is falling anyway, and whomever is staying on the boat is begging to have their money taken ( http://soshable.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg )

I guess you can ;)

@jams
Yet I do not seem to be amazed by your ignorance. Did I mention its a beta and everything is subjectable to change, oh sorry, my bad, Deja Vu. Now, who would build something that they think to last based on beta, oh I don't know, maybe some money hungry fellows that saw easy potential for making cash and now refuse to accept change, and do many bad thing, aiming the community towards VALVe's throat etc. I said what I had to say in my previous comments.

So your idea of stats site is "Hat Styles Inc."? :D

Is there any TF2 stats site whose sole purpose is not advertising key sales?

Akonn, you seem to be basing your entire argument that Dotabuff will have mandatory subscriptions. Which is not the case. You can subscribe for a few graphs, showing change over time. Everything else will still be free, just as it was previously. Subscriptions are just a way to support the site. You're also ignoring the fact that they are not selling raw data, but an analysis.

@jams
Again with the ignorance. How is advertising compared to selling private data ?? I never said that a website must do everything for free, after all there is a server upkeep fee to pay, as so is work deserving of reward - pay, but, one big point here is that you don't do it that way dotabuff.com, never ! I am disgusted with the money hunger that has been exemplified and the reaction of the community. Seriously do I have to repeat myself, stop being so ignorant and read my comments thoroughly, or keep coming up with worthless arguments, that have no place in this picture. Be it as you want, when I started this debate, I came prepared with knowledge as I expected criticism over my criticism, which is normal, you can't offer your opinion without expecting to be criticized about it, even be it with arguments that lack any form of thinking, bias, or senseless. I must add one thing though, I sincerely do not know how can you people live with yourselves. I will add an official know fact: Did you know that the free 2 play model implemented by VALVe is an anomaly on the Free 2 Play Gaming Market, as no other model has ever come closer to the definition of Truly Free. That being said, I have never seen in my life such level of callousness. What's next, ask VALVe for the moon or what ?? You guys clearly need to try on some other free games, even one close to Dota 2, maybe League of Legends ?? Do you lack and good sense at all, have you not been taught as a child by your parents to behave. You guys are the kind that given something, will take it without a second thought, and no sense of gratitude, and will also take the entire hand of the one who is offering (a saying from my old country of origin)
I could add many more things, but I will not do so as I have explained myself really well in all my previous comments. If you have a thick skull, its not my fault I am sorry. Continue being ignorant and biased or try to be a better person, cause you are obviously not seeing the big picture in all of this, or you refuse to.

@Bronze Scum
Let me clarify. I never bashed the means of sustainability. I bashed their actions and reactions ! Read my comments more thoroughly, as everyone seems to be picking whatever information they like without taking in consideration that all the information is linked, and everything has an explanation. My resolution is that every action has a reaction.

@akonnriddick god you really are a total braindead moron :)))

My post was sarcasm regarding how all of the TF 2 stats sites are about inventories and items only, which is fine and dandy for my 2 year old daughter that loves dressing virtual characters, but for a competitive game is kinda ridiculous. No match stats anywhere to be found (correct me if I'm wrong). Nowhere did I say anything about sites getting money - I support all that manage to do, it just means that they made a product worth for someone to buy.

So according to you ads are fine, selling virtual clothes is fine, but selling access to a web site you built is not. And for the umpteenth time THE FUCKING DATA IS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE THERE IS NO PRIVATE DATA AND NOONE IS SELLING DATA. They are selling the graphs and pretty images of it, just like JoinDota is selling your eyes with pretty images of Dota 2 and the sexy voice of Toby, and Valve is selling pretty images of the heroes.

Worthless arguments? Well I'm the only one coming out with arguments. You still failed to address the invalidity of your initial point which you base your entire argumentation on. Replay parsing STILL IS endorsed by Valve, point me to a source like I did stating otherwise.

You jabber about things that no one ever contradicted while failing to address the things people did. Yeah Valve has a true Free to play model with Dota 2, I applaud and salute them for it. It's amazing and exemplary to not have a pay to win model, no matter how small it is (the reason why I will never play LoL). You think you're the only one to recognize it? What does it have to do with DotaBuff's site and monetization method anyway? Yeah they offer some graphs and guides for pay - so fucking WHAT! More power to them if their offering is good enough for people to buy it, free market buddy. You dont like it - dont pay for it. The data is out there, no-one stopping you from building your own graphs or even your own free site. But know one thing, with your size you're never gonna get over that penis envy, all the magic pills are a lie!

@akonnriddick

You manage to contradict yourself within 10 minutes:

'Again with the ignorance. How is advertising compared to selling private data ?'

'Let me clarify. I never bashed the means of sustainability.'

@jams
I don't even know why I keep trying. Seriously do you even think before posting ?? The asnwer is in your very quote, selling private data is a no-no, advertising is normal for sustainability. Seriously you are hurting my brain really bad, I don't have to proces data so much not even for my grandchildren, kid you are mentally retarded. Sorry.

akonnriddick

troll 9/10
actually really good attempt, thank you for entertainment

@FelStyle
I am glad I could entertain you sir, though I am dissapointed I did not make a 10 out of 10. Remeber in the future, do not feed the trolls. Joke aside you forgot to mention how I am wrong in any possible way, debate and argue. Its sad that the truth, the actual events point in my favor. I call your post a simple defense mechanism against painful truth. Keeping it in a clean, short and concise format gives you the perfect offensive when there is nothing left in your favor. Not diving into the subject is another point.

@akonnriddick "Seriously you are hurting my brain really bad"

I think I even peed myself a bit :D

I admit defeat.

@akonrideadick
It is funny watching people feed you, as the troll you are.

Also, in order to do my part in feeding the troll and keeping this thread alive, I offer this point:
You do not have a single datapoint backing you up. The debate ended when you stopped listening/reading the other responses, and instead repeated yourself or went off on tangents.

*takes out popcorn to watch

@FelStyle
Thank you sir.
@jams
Sometimes when humanity has reached the apex of stupidity, a condition never thought to be infinite, you must admit defeat. I admit defeat to your substandard level of intelligence and thus I feel forced to respond in a childish way.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/126/314/3cd8a33a.png
I hope images do! make more than a thousand words.

@[Bronze] Средний или я ко...
I see no such thing, I only see as the debate coming to an end when my answers failed to be questioned with real data.

"selling private data is a no-no"

Yet it's been pointed out that it's NOT as private as you believe. Dotabuff was parsing replays for info, and Valve has actually released a replay parser for public use. This has been brought up, yet you keep ignoring the fact. Jams even linked the parser ( https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Demo_Format ). So if you consider easily accessible data as "private", maybe you need to brush up on your English.

AND AGAIN, it's not the raw data being sold. IT'S THE ANALYSIS.

Sorry I seem to have missed one comment @jams. If you have a problem with VALVe's resolution, then deal with it. My data is private even if it means you will not receive your rating. API on the other hand will fix this, but wait I already said about that. The game is in beta, VALVe never fails to provide, this two things alone point to one result, the death of the business model implemented by dotabuff.com

Ah he's russian. Explains it all, he's not actually a troll... he is serious :D

EDIT: you missed my only serious comment in this whole thread...damn. Oh and BTW which data are we exactly talking about here?

"My data is private even if it means you will not receive your rating"

6. USER GENERATED INFORMATION

"User Generated Information" means any information made available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam or to Valve or its affiliates through your use of the Software or otherwise. User Generated Information may include, but is not limited to, chat, forum posts, screen names, game selections, player performances, usage data, suggestions about Valve products or services, and error notifications. Subject to the Valve privacy policy referenced in Section 1 above, as applicable, and except as otherwise specifically addressed in any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use, you expressly grant Valve and its affiliates the non-exclusive, irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind. For any content for which you take advantage of cloud storage provided by Valve, you grant us a license to store such information for you, and you represent and warrant to us that you have sufficient rights in such content to grant us this license. You acknowledge and agree that we may place limits on the amount of storage you may use.

TLDR: You don't own that data, Valve does.

@jams
Thank you for confirming your stature as a human being by proving me with a good example of racism. And no, you are wrong.
@Bronze Scum
I understand, but you fail to mention my other point of view, dotabuff.com owners reaction to all of this, and everything else that I said. Did I not mention that you keep picking up only what information you like ?? Every piece of information is linked to each other, this whole subject was about many things, not just one. And do not fail to believe, the data will be private. Beta ring a bell ??

No one is arguing that Dotabuff acted inappropriately after Valve's changes. That's why we're not addressing it. But your points about data and money can be taken stand-alone, and those are the points we have an issue with.

Edit (you posted while I was writing): You forget that VALVe's resolution is based on privacy, VALVe owns it and I do not question that, as our privacy is respected though them. To get to my point, VALVe respects the privacy of their users, as they treat them like human beings (compared to the treatment of other companies). VALVe will never make data public in any way for the sake of hoarders, or people that wish to make money off of it.

I understand your point of view, yet I fail to see how VALVe did wrong by respecting Privacy ??
@jams
I missed your comment simply because I was writing while you were posting it, stop being ignorant.

I fault Valve for immediately cutting off Dotabuff's gathering method, rather than allowing them time to switch over. It was entirely within Valve's rights to do so, yes, but it isn't within their usual policy of "community first". Because no matter what the majority of individuals may be saying now, Dotabuff was still a community resource.

@akonrideadick
As you are not sufficient,y fed, digest this:
Valve has in many instances (not limited to the wiki) endorsed and encouraged developers to push the boundaries of replay mining. By pure derivative law, when you start melding and reshaping data, you now own it (especially if it was made freely available). There have been a few replay parsing projects discussed on the forums and valve did not make a single statement on any. Dotabuff was definitely not in the wrong to parse replays, and valve has no obligation to foster a community of developers by continuing to provide replays. It was truly a dick move to suddenly remove all access with no notice and leave no suitable alternative.

If you are truly interested in debating address those two points entirely without deviating on a tangent.

@Bronze Scum
Yes, if there is one thing I am agreeing to in this whole drama queen war, is that VALVe acted unnaturally with that update. Though I think there might be a hidden meaning to it, but I cannot delve into conspiracy theories as I dislike inventing stuff, I prefer hard, correct data. The only thing I can think of is a reason for why VALVe acted like this, and as I said with the conspiracy thing, we do not know what happened between them and dotabuff.com, but seeing the reacting of dotabuff.com and its actions after that, VALVe had a reason. I simply think of it that way because its unnatural to VALVe to act like this. UNLESS, unless it has something to do directly with IceFrog as he is the man in charge after all, he calls the shots from what I know.
Edit: Anyway that is one subject we do not have an answer to.

"Thank you for confirming your stature as a human being by proving me with a good example of racism."

The penis size joke was a satirical take on the intelligence in the postings here and was in no way intended to imply I'm of the Negroid race.

Op is probably trying to bash every entrepreneur for trying to make money with a product they've spent a long time to develop, right?
People like OP shouldn't be just banned from the internet, they should also be imprisoned, preferably for life. You are the scum of the earth, do you realize that?

Welcome to internets, where "my" point of viewing is the reality and all who disagree are ignorant.

I didn´t put a cent over dotabuff and was using htier data for some time... Valve can mask players as long as it wants, as long the data is not hidden.

Every single action in the world require money, even "time" to maintain a huge system of colect and hold data from Dota 2. If you don´t think the work of dotabuff worht, do not pay, simple enought.

But there are 2 things to consider: 1) Game is stil in beta and nothing is final yet. 2) If dotabuff is working on valve data to make money, valve have the right to get a comission for that.

For number 2: As long dotabuff is (or not) working for money or for sustain, the one who have to deal with it is valve and dotabuff only.

Nuff said

My idea: If people share their data, dotabuff offer an account to use. If not, hold them back.

I still can't find anywhere on dotabuff to prevent my data being shared, can you???

Given that my three most recent matches look like this: http://i.imgur.com/nTuNt0P.png

Do you really need to tell Dotabuff not to track you?

lol @akonnriddick he only made an account to troll, what a noob.

I'm surprised no one in this thread mentioned DBR. Valve let this site alone for months but then DBR came, a visible rating valve want hidden.

This guy is a retard, all these posts are making me laugh.

here comes another 10 line post

@ the DBR comment a few posts above;

You're correct, Valve left this site alone until DBR was released. They want any sort of scale hidden because of all the negative connotations associated with a low rating.

In other words, if low rated players get abused & driven out of the game, valves potential target market will decrease = less dollars. I understand that DBR is private, but that doesn't stop people abusing others in game.. "my DBR is 2100, so you can go eat a dick feeder noob" (needless to say, said abuser may very well be lying - but it can still be used as a tool for intimidation)

Also, everyone needs to understand, valve is a company that has a goal - one goal - profit. & there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's what businesses do. We as gamers will never get 100% of what we want.

Sincerely,

A supporter of DBR