at some point if you play against heroes like alch,am,pa,ls,pl,void the atk speed slow would barely be noticeable to non-existent if they start to right click you with bkb on.
Skadi is best in terms of Arcane Orb dmg and hp/mp, and other stats
While Shiva and hex both have actives which would help him to nuke someone without the ability to run away
12 extra armor > 725hp.
Mass attack speed debuff + slow will help in team fights
Also however stupid this may sound - it is harder to farm Skadi, late game or no late game. You can start off shiva by buying Mystic staff which is already a HUGE boost to your attacking power and you only have to farm extra 2000 gold to complete the item.
When it comes to skadi - you can't really carry more than 1 piece of it at one time. Your slots will be busy with other items. So say you have 2700 and you decided to go for skadi. You've bought the orb (which won't give you much really 10 int compared to 25 from mystic staff, have 600 gold left and you have to farm extra 2900 gold before you can use the full potential of skadi.
1 point of armor always gives you 6% more ehp no matter what your armor value is
it's not diminishing returns
Right, extra armor always has the same effect in terms of effective hp. There are no diminishing returns. Adding 5 armor when you have 20 is just as good as adding 5 armor when you have none.
However the value of adding armor increases the larger your hp. So adding 5 armor to a 2k hp hero is twice as good as adding 5 armor to a 1k hp hero. When you are choosing between two items: 1 that adds mostly hp and one that adds mostly armor... it's possible for either to be better at different hp and armor levels. You just have to calculate the change for both cases.
Skadi reduces attack speed by 20 on only the target you attack...
adds 3.5 armor
Shivas reduces attack speed by 40 on everything in a 900 radius....Shivas is far far better.
adds 15 armor
In terms of tank a skadi might be better in comparison to a shiva only if the enemy team deals massive non physical dmg. Otherwise... yeah, the armour difference is huge. Well, maybe if an OD picked a mek earlier, he might not need that much armour anymore... But still, shiva gives more int and as Relentless said, the slow is better on shiva. So, briefly speaking, i think a skadi "might" be taken over shiva in some situations, but in moooost caces its better to pick the latter.
Lets take a look at the difference in detail.
Level 16 OD, with treads, hex, fstaff, bkb...and now he adds either skadi or shivas
OH NO! farmed up lvl 16 Alchemist is attacking with treads, Shadow Blade BkB, AC, Abyssal Blade. Can OD survive that initial attack? If Alch does it right you could easily have Alchemist chopping you down for 6 seconds before you have any hope of escape. OD needs to live through that stun time...Alch's bkb is mostly used up...if you can just live long enough to cast hex you can take him down.
Alchemist has massive dps, with acid and AC knocking your armor down 11 points it looks grim. Alch average attack dmg is 257 and he has +131 AS with BAT of 1.0. Unmodified you are facing dps = 594.
Before the buy OD had 1594 hp and 11.3 armor.
Adding Skadi
--------------------------------------------
OD has 2319 hp and 14.8 armor -11 from AC and Acid...3.8 armor...EHP = 2894
So Alchemist will take 4.9 seconds to kill you from full health...better hope he failed to charge concoction at all and doesn't get any bashes.
Adding Shivas
-------------------------------------------------
Alch attack speed drops to +91 because this is a passive reduction...who cares that you are stunned! Alch dps drops to 491.
OD hp =1594 and armor 26.3 -11 from AC and Acid is 15.3 so EHP = 3887...Alchemist requires 7.9 seconds to kill you. You will survive the stun time, hex him and arcane orb him down...or wimp out and hex him and Fstaff away.
This is why you get Shivas not Skadi. Although if Alchemist gets lucky on bashes OD dies either way. Reducing Attack speed passively is critical to avoiding stun lock.
Cant`t read all off this,but i will just say that skady on OD is total fail for sure. Treads/meka/force staff/hex/bkb/refresher or shiva you don`t ever need skady on OD.
I go for refresher straight after force staff. That is before they other team can farm up Bkb. The score board usually goes like this http://dotabuff.com/matches/302951971
Still hex before refresher is better alot. Your ulti with hex do almost same mount of dmg as 2x ulti with refresher without hex.
thnx @relentless and paintingapicture
i always thought that armor had diminishing returns, thats what i based my opinion on, seems i was wrong.
now i see why shiva's is better than skadi.
will take into account next time i play OD
@Indogoo, that won't work once you reach higher skill bracket games.
Players will get bkb before you get refresher. That is why rushing hex is better because you can lock them down and kill most carries in that duration of time.
The problem with OD is that only if enemy carry gets a bkb, and is magic immune, u would hit like a cat with 100-150 dmg and ur ulti is totally useless, without the magic immunity u might give 500 dmg in one hit, regardless of the magic dmg from ur ulti.
About shivas, I sometimes get a platemail just for the 10+ armor, and might skip shivas for some better item, maybe a ghost scepter
But that might max ur slots too early, at that time u can upgrade them :D
Armor is to be taken as a choice only against DPS heroes, because they reduce their DPS on u, but HP is more effective against nukers with magical dmg, this was mentioned before
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So I like to play OD and whenever i find myself in a game that goes past Schythe/Bkb i always buy Eye of Skadi, (if the opposing team has little hard CC i skip bkb and go straight for skadi).
What i cannot understand is why people go for Shiva's Guard.
Let me explain: Shiva's is 4700 gold and gives 15 armor and 30 int and ~350 mana and a 40 atk speed slow, skadi is 5600 and gives as a total 725HP, 575 mana, 25 damage, 25 attack speed, 1 mana regen/second, .75 HP regen/second, and 3.5 armor.
as you can see EOS is inferior in armor and the aoe nuke and atk speed reducing aura, but OD has a fairly good armor gain, and the physical resistance that is given from extra armor comes with diminishing gains, so that almost completely nulifies the armor argument. but then he gains 725 hp, which is a huge boost to how much he can last in a fight, given that he has a short range and must be really up close and personal.
sure the orb doesnt stack with od's orb, but he gains so much more, an eye of skadi gives ~50-60 pure damage from q, and the extra surviveability is far superior than shiva's.
and the bonus it gives to the ultimate is the same, 25 to 30 inteligence. thats like 37 more magic damage coming from sanity's eclipse if you have shiva and not skadi, not a biggie.
you can argue that gold might be an issue. but for a hard carry gold is problem mostly in early-mid game, and od is no exception. he is a fast farmer and can easily farm up the 1k gold difference once the game passes 40+ minutes.
any counter arguments?