General DiscussionInvoker Rework?

I would discuss it if it didn't required me to register.

Invoker: nerfed in every recent patch!

v6.78:
- Level 11 XP requirements reduced from 6500 to 6000
- Level 12 XP requirements increased from 7700 to 8200
- Ancient Janggo of Endurance: Recipe cost increased from 750 to 800
- New Force Staff: +10 Intelligence & +3 Regeneration
- Ancient Janggo of Endurance: Bonus damage decreased from 9 to 3
- 65 Heroes got buffed (Invoker's buff did not make w/q viable and hardly helped exort)

v6.77:
- 29 heroes got buffed (Not Invoker)

v6.76
- 38 heroes got buffed (Not Invoker)

v6.75:
- Invoker base damage decreased by 4
- Team AoE bounty for kills with 2 heroes around changed from 9*Level+95 to 12*Level + 125
- Team AoE bounty for kills with 3 heroes around changed from 8*Level+20 to 10*Level+40

v6.74:
- EMP can no longer hit Invulnerable/Tornadoed units
- EMP cooldown increased from 25 to 30 seconds
- Tornado cooldown increased from 25 to 30 seconds

There are a few direct/indirect buffs to invoker, but it does not compensate for all those nerfs above:

- While empty, Bottle causes couriers to move 30% slower
- Chaos Meteor damage increased from 80+Exort*30 to 80+Exort*35
- Chaos Meteor land time decreased from 1.5 to 1.3
- Sun Strike damage type changed from Magical to Pure
- Sun Strike now reveals the area it will hit before the damage impact
- Tornado damage rescaled from 70+(Wex+Quas)*20 to 70+(2*Wex+Quas)*15
- Alacrity manacost decreased from 100 to 75
- Ghost Walk slow increased from 20/23/26/30/33/36/40 to 20/25/30/35/40/45/50
- Ghost Walk cooldown decreased from 60 to 35

how is the xp thing a nerf to anyone rofl

It's a nerf for carries but good thing for casters early-mid game

who cares about invoker, useless hero.

Strong early game heroes benefits a lot from faster level 11. Invoker is a mid-late game hero; thus, it is an indirect nerf.
Moreover, level 12 is now delayed, so early game heroes enjoy a longer time to thrive with their level 2 ultimate.

Invoker is awesome hero I would love to see him back in competitive dotar 2

btw can you copy / paste that thread Playdota says i need an account to read it

You have to go mid with invoker, cos he needs levels. Can't leave mid to gank cos he has no real skills to do so, so while you farm mid, your opponents owns your team with ganks and you've been of no use whatsoever.

Even if that did not happen and somehow your lanes didn't suck - you are useless mid game since in high skilled games all carries buy bkb.

There is a reason why invoker has one of the worst winrate - it's a useless hero which would only thrive in low skilled games.

Copy/pasted from PlayDota

"SO, it's a pretty popular topic around here- trying to get invoker back in the meta. Everyone likes him, hes just so fun to play. However, literally every suggestion ive every seen has been to just give him more base damage. This might work but I'd like to propose a slightly more creative mechanic:

Invoker gets access to all 3 orbs from level 1. These orbs would be "level zero" orbs- the same as their level 1 counterparts but without the passive portion (regen damage speed or any stats).

What this change does

Makes invoker a much better laner. Let's be real, that was pretty much everyone's main gripe about him anyways- he used to be a laning and now he isnt. With all 3 orbs, no matter what build he goes, he will have access to (a very slow and costly)invis, as well as a lvl 1 coldsnap. I am 99% sure this change would lead to a much higher use of Alacrity in the laning stage too. As it is currently, it's theoretically a great laning stage spell (+dmg and attackspeed at a low cost), but no one wants to do WE invoker, because honestly he reeaaally needs coldsnap.

This change would make his double forge spirit come online 1 level earlier, if you were one of those invokers who maxed qe but got the level in wex (honestly though there were tons of vokers who just rushed it by lvl 9 anyway)

This change would also *mmayyybe* make an alacrity voker slightly more plausible, since he gets 1 rank of cold snap for free (rank 1 coldsnap is not that bad tbh).

I really think this change would add a LOT of spell diversity very early on. Currently even the most pro invokers dont start casting that many spells just because at low levels its pretty much impossible to have all 3 orbs unlocked.

For example, qw invokers instead of just last hitting with cold snap invoked, they will have alacrity rank 1 up nonstop but have cold snap ready (like, alacrity first then qqqr then coldsnap), so we will be seeing 2 spells earlygame instead of 1)

What this change WONT do
Make him a lvl 1 ganking god. He still sucks in lvl 1 skirmishes because invoke requires level 2 at minimum.

It also would not give him the stats from each of the orbs, just the actives.

I also dont think it would make him overpowered. These spells *do* cost mana, and invokers manapool isnt actually that great without items (ala earlygame). Alacrity for example IS 75 per cast, and that will add up eventually

Thoughts? "

"Brilliant suggestion; however, level 0 orb will need a tweak for alacrity, cold snap, and spirits.

As much as I love Invoker being overpowered, I'd rather avoid him being snatched from me.

Small tweak, and I support your idea:
Level 0 quas spirits = Duration: 10 seconds, Range: 200, Mana: 50
Level 0 exort spirits = Damage: 20, Armor: 1, Life: 200

Level 0 wex alacrity = Bonus attack speed: 10%
Level 0 exort alacrity = Damage: 10

Level 0 quas cold snap = stun cooldown: 0.8, Duration: 2.5 seconds "

Actually 12 level still needs the same exp as before. Also almost all of those nerfs are indirect. I really don't think IF though something like "Hmm let's change some items a way that it will hurt Invoker the most." He actually got some buffs at the most recent patches like alacrity and ghost walk.

Also dude you already rape everyone with him. What if they buff him even more? This kind of reminds me of the "Tremblerape" guy from HoN. Just because that guy was so good with Tremble, they kept nerfing the hero to the point where the hero was least picked and least winrate at the time.

Last patch, invoker's buffs were negated indirectly. In actuality, Invoker was indirectly nerfed more than he was buffed. It feels as if minimum wage was raised, but the average cost of living was raised too!

v6.78:
- Level 11 XP requirements reduced from 6500 to 6000
- Level 12 XP requirements increased from 7700 to 8200
- Ancient Janggo of Endurance: Recipe cost increased from 750 to 800
- New Force Staff: +10 Intelligence & +3 Regeneration
- Ancient Janggo of Endurance: Bonus damage decreased from 9 to 3
- 65 Heroes got buffed (Invoker's buff did not make w/q viable and hardly helped exort)

it's not a weak hero at all... not being picked says nothing (SB isn't picked, for example)

^
SB wasn't picked because he doesn't do well against coordinated teams, but at least SB destroys pub matches.
Invoker does not do well against coordinate teams and the majority of the best invokers in the world are minimally rewarded with 60%-70% win rate and 4-5 KDA. Compare that with other heroes that get 80-90% win rate and much higher KDA with less skills involved.

Says the guy with %80 winrate and 10 KDA.

In statistics, my win rate and kda are omitted because it does not accurately represent the general population. It is a huge anomaly.

There will always be one or two exceptions in statistics.

I would say, keep invoker as it is, but buff the Q+W build, that low base dmg forces you to go Q+E, which is really strong, but not as useful as Q+W.

Imo Invoker dissapeared because of the constant bottle-crowing, not because of such little nerfs, afaik he is not a good rune control hero and never gets a bottle, so its a great disadvantage.

Mikasa!!! OMG I can't believe the show is over..... The sales in Japan better skyrocket; otherwise, I'll get angry like Eren and turn into a titan too!

lol, you should read the manga :D

I read 150+ pages for coursework every week..... I'm not gonna read for entertainment too.

Magnus got nerfed, so did TA, and so will OD (most likely) in the next patch. Invoker got nerfed because he was a bullshit hero. He could either opt for Exort and have a stupid amount of base damage at level 1, or go with Quas and still have decent last hitting power + insane regen, and of course he then gets Cold Snap which is a bullshit spell in the lane. That was ridiculous. Now, he has to go Exort at level 1, and he does fine, he is somewhat weak, sure, but he can still drop massive pure damage nukes which are piss easy to land (allied disables) and still is a pest in ganking and shit with Cold Snap.

Guys, realise that OP is actually an idiot. Remember when Invoker was the king of mid because he crushed just about everyone? Yeah, when people started to use TA, grimorum started whinging about it. but how can anyone beat my waifu invoker at mid :(:(:(, TA OP :)! Seriously get fucked mate, anyone that only plays a single hero has way less of an idea of where he stands in terms of balance compared to others who play a much broader range of heroes.

"Invoker was king of mid and crushed everyone." That never happened. Ever. How does a hero with no spells at level 1 can even "crush" the mid lane?

@ Terrible

IceFrog nerfed TA's laning for good reason, he was too strong. Do you feel empowered after insulting other people? What did I do to you?

@Terrible
I disagree that people that only play 1 certain hero have way less an idea of balancing the heroes. A player, playing a hero this much knows every little detail of a hero and he knows his potentials and his weaknesses. I know those players would have the most and probably also the best ideas to tweak a hero.

For example I could think of hundreds of ways to tweak my brood, yet I know brood destroys almost every lane and I do think buffing brood a little too much would result in being firstpick material again.

@topic
I like this idea, I used to be a big fan of alacrity during laning phase. Also note that the lvl 0 spells are very weak and come at a big manacost. I support the idea however I have no idea how it might look gameplaywise

good tread, make that happend.

invoker not picked so much for mid lane. Thank God, cuz I was cringing every time a 30 mintue invoker with force staff, phase boots and euls. Not that there's anything wrong with that build except, him not leaving the lane or taking mid tower. Thus 0 influence in game.

bump bump

I support this idea... that or bump his base damage up by at least 3 again XD

oh how much i'd like any kind of buffs to invoker,like seriously
you have to try 100x harder than before to get a kill in-lane or in early game overall
please keep the thread alive,we could do reddit aswell