General DiscussionWhy is volvo so against stats/Why does volvo refuse to reveal MM system?

They previously said they were not happy with the MM system they had at that time. Why reveal it if they are going to change it anyway? They are changing stuff in the matchmaker quite frequently and to be honest it does not really make sense for them to make the system visible unless they are content with it.

So that people won't see their rating and rage about it.

why do u need it?

Gabe Newell even says in a youtube interview: They have it hidden because they think its is "crap" and until they can figure out a better one it will stay hidden.

Hidden everyone has a vauge sense that it is crap (as Gabe said) and there are plenty of complaints. Revealed, there would be a lot more complaints because everyone could see exactly how bad it really is and have specific games to whine about.

Unfortunately since they have not figured it out in 2 years...most likely the people they have assigned to do it just are not capable of solving the problem and Gabe doesn't want to fire them.

Part of the problem also is that they are afraid of the extreme hostility the dota community has shown in the past to new/weak players and they believe visible scores drive that. So to attract new players they do not want MMR visible until they are confident it will not prevent new players from joining.

Besides that Valve has also said they want a way to show "progress" with their rating system. But the matching tool will show the reality that even as you make progress as a player you will come to point where you cannot really get much better. For nearly everyone that plateau will not be near the top. The whole MM system has to grade people vs each other so that half of them will be rated below average. It must do that to function. It is not like the fake school experience dota players are accustomed to where nearly everyone got over 60% on easy tests and anyone who worked hard could get 90%. No this is like trying to make a team with cuts...most people can't...will that team from your school win the conference championship? No all but 1 team will lose. Will you win the State or National championship? No, only 1 team does, everyone else ends the season with a loss. Will you go pro? No, only the very best of best can even try and they mostly fail too. That is MMR, everyone is far far far away from a high score.

So Valve doesn't want to show everyone that they are nowhere close to being a top dota player and never will be close.

I personally think that dota players are NOT cowards with giant egos who can't face the reality of their ordinary lives...dota is a competitive game where you must risk losing, risk failing over and over. I think the fact that people keep playing it despite that fact proves they can man-up and face the truth of their mediocrity and failure and keep going anyway. That takes courage. Sure its only a game...but you still have to face the reality of losing. I think that proves dota 2 players can deal with seeing their stagnant low MMRs...but Valve is not as optimistic as I am.

you must be smoking something if you think the average dota 2 player will accept that he is fucking awful. The game will end VICTORY you are now in SECOND LAST PLACE

Relentless's theory sounds about right...

Valve should just reveal how MM works and dozens of people will rush to suggest how they can improve it. There are plenty of capable and enthusiastic people in the community.

Statistics-wise, why the hell not? Its a competitive game. I like to see the stats of others and myself. Doesn't matter if I'm worse.

its a competitive TEAM game its really only 3rd party websites who make it about the individual

Only thing that I disagree with Relentless is about people making MM. Making working algorithm like that for 5x5 games, when you have MILLION variables (i.e player can play really good support, but game doesnt know if he picks support/carry; people have different mood/attitute towards game at different times; Parties that have 1 good guy and 4 bad ones- will that team defeat a team that is all 5 average? Or will nature of dota favour teams with less skill spread?). There is just too many questions, too many uncertanties to make a GOOD system.

Its no ordinary task.

It is a team game...but you need access to a lot of individual information to correctly put together teams. That information is all hidden and that is why almost no one plays team matching. There are enough players for several hundred thousand teams...but only 20k teams active at all and most of them play a handful of times and break up.

@ the Terrible...well you are right its not trivial. But its not really that hard. You should not use any in game stats. Just use wins and losses and it will be fine. It makes no difference how you win. What counts is who did you play and did you win? Did you win consistently?

So by that logic all the ursa-treant-wisp and other early rosh pub stompers are top of the MM and best players out there.
Not to mention its easy to get good winrate if you are bad but your friends are good. Those people then would be counted as better than they actually are.

So yeah it is pretty hard. Dota is chaotic game, half of the inputs are not even known to the MM before the begging of the game.

No...they are not the top of MMR. Not even close. Some of those stacks are very good, but none are near the top.

It matters who you play. In a proper rating sytem you do not give people points for beating those far below them and you cannot get to the top by defeating lower ranked players many times. The only way you get to a high score is by beating other top ranked teams....its not that complicated.

There would be less flaming and more learning if rank were visible. E.g. I'd listen to someone who has a far higher rank than I do. Same scenario, no rank revealed, I just end up reporting him, because I'm the best player in the world.

Why do they make TMM rating visible?
I used to think TMM rating is just average MMR of 5 players in the team.

I was talking about pub MM.
For team MM I do agree its simpler to setup ELO for teams, although variational player performances are still there.
I don't think they just care about that feature much, probably trying to make public MM good first.

^

Stats will grant you respect from unknown teammates. And if you're performing better than others, you will usually do a better judgement call. E.g. lets rosh/lets mid.

@Vandal Thats complete bullshit and you know it lol.

@snowman stats really only add to flamewars without stats being shown everyone is equal when they enter the team.

Not once does a player in the middle of a game go "this invoker is dominating the game let me check his stats so I can verify that he isnt just getting lucky"

Relentless best post 2013.

Sampson triple post OP. Imba pls nerf.

Only I can nerf myself :P

Matchmaking is bullshit as of late, I wouldn't be surprised that it's random cause the other team is just terrible every game. I can't comprehend how a multi-million dollars worth company can't take care of problems like that in such a that amount of time (although matchmaking was working before atleast for me).

@ Steror : lol multi million dollar isn't that much amount of money, and lot of problems in the real world are much harder than it might appears to be, when it goes back to the human nature, many of them are not solvable

the fact is clear as relentless stated: 95% of all players suck, but almost all of them believe they are pro lol

@sampson
Nope. I have some friends that I know are really good, and I listen to their advice when they speak it. I'd also listen to the advice of someone who went to ti3 if they were telling me what I did wrong, and be grateful to hear it. Making MMR public would basically allow me to know when to listen and when I can just say fuck off.

Actually u can check anybody's stats on dotabuff after he completes 200 games so I dont see the point of this conversation

@Vandal
Seriously if somebody tries to advice u with a good aproach when u are not going well on a game listen first and decide after if he was helpful,Im playing Dota from 2005 doesnt mean Im better than someone who started 2010 for example or from someone i have more games than him (especially when there was invite only beta many veteran players joined 1-1.5 year after so they may have far more less games played from e.g. a newcomer in Dota that happened to get invited)

@Sampson, but not everyone is equal and that is a fact. For example if someone says their pudge is good and they want mid but their stats imply they're a horrid pudge. I sure as hell ain't letting him mid.

Stats make people shut the fuck up and that is a GOOD thing. I'd rather have a single player with the best stats who may or may not potentially being a arrogant ass with a crappy personality. I'd rather have that than FIVE PLAYERS who may or may not potentially be arrogant assholes with crappy personalities even though they suck.

"I'd rather have a single player with the best stats who may or may not potentially being a arrogant ass with a crappy personality. I'd rather have that than FIVE PLAYERS who may or may not potentially be arrogant assholes with crappy personalities even though they suck."
This. So much this.

snowman guess what happens when you do that? you have 2 people mid and you fuck up your game. Too many players think they are MUCH MUCH MUCH better than they actually are. For example say I suck with shadow demon but I want to learn to play him better so we have it rdy for captains mode if required. Who you want on your team and what MM gives you are two different issues. You are killing your own argument when you talk about how if pudges stats suck you will start a epeen war with him and that is EXACTLY why valve is against it.

You're implying I let my game, along with 3 other teammates be ruined for the sake of a player who refuses to practice said hero on bots/alternate accounts in lower brackets?

Say I'm in your game and say "Hey, I wanna practice a new build. Don't mind me going jungle clock and stealing more than half your waves to jungle. Nothing wrong here, even if it spoils your game I'm just practicing."

And my clock stats go KDA 1.45 :/

There is NOTHING you can do about it at that point THEY are on your team alrdy. The person isnt going to go "O hes got 2% more w/l than me I guess I wont jungle"

Personally I would like stats back BUT you are exactly the reason valve removed it because of kids who use it to make problems worse

In case you didn't read my other thread...

I am a fan of Valve implementing a separate Ranked MM system so casuals can be casuals and people can play serious when they want to. In the ranked MM where the goal is winning, then yes I believe players should not troll or do roles they are not good at.

'players should not do roles they are not good at' again that giant ego of yours is clouding your judgement because compared to ALOT of players you and I are 'not good at' even our top heroes

What sort of flawed logic is that? Obviously a rating will come with your stats. Who cares if a person with a bottom low rating has 10 KDA on Ursa as opposed to a VH bracket player with 5 KDA. Stats doesn't mean there will be no more matchmaking.

I have never qued against a normal bracket player when I solo que so that has never once been a issue.....If MM is working correctly it should give you people of similar skill(most people think they are MUCH better than what they actually are)