General DiscussionViability of the Divine Rapier in Competetive Games

too risky, from what i have seen myself there's a disturbing tendency for the enemy team become much harder to deal with if you get a rapier

How is it too risky?
Also Slark in my example would be completely immune to anything but bkb piercing aoe disables for 4 seconds.
With enough practice with this type of play, why would it be more risky than say securing farm for your hard carry?

Pros play for money.
Playing in competitions with a team is time consuming (both playing in tournaments and the large number of hours in practicing), and if you aren't placing top 3 in most tournaments, especially the bigger ones, then quite simply you aren't making enough to cover the costs of living.
Hence they mitigate risk as much as possible..is it that hard?

Slark? How much are you going to get done in the 4 seconds? I mean really, firstly you need to use it preemptively, so time is consumed in getting into a position to attack, and then things like force staff (before pounce)/ghost scepter are around, and even if you do catch someone out, there is now another 4 heroes who can probably rip you apart.

Its a high risk strategy. These kinds of things are only used by teams when they are losing and its their only chance of coming back or they know the opponents are significantly better than them, and they need to take a risk like that in order to win. You lose that rapier, and its a 12.4k gold swing the other way.

but howz dat risky rapierznot risky at all, just get slark+ omniknight and the game is secured.

Yeah, but if they lose the game then it's pretty much a "throw", isn't it?

"Hence they mitigate risk as much as possible..is it that hard?"

I disagree. I think that they can be risky as long as it is not 'negatively risky'.
Say there was an ingame button at the start of a match that if you pressed it, you would get a 60% chance to win but lose otherwise. The definition of risky, but with two roughly equal teams, you would rush to press it, would you not?

Onto Slark; he would just sit behind and pounce into battle after your initiator starts the fight. (say tide for example)

And he would deal about 400 damage, attack twice a second, and have 4 seconds of hitting.
Which is 3200 physical damage before reductions. Enough to take out two people at least.

Onto it being a last ditch item: I think that is the wrong way to use it. If it somewhat evens the playing field when losing, imagine what it could do when your on an even playing field. (edit)

Offtopic: how do I/can I quote someone?

Your plan is 2 risky bro. They can still get heroes which are able to rape slark, for example void (highly unlikely), magnus, enigma and so on. You didnt think through the whole thing.

You have to think the worst possible way like: you lost T1 and T2 towers, Omni gets picked off, slark has to do shit otherwise raxed, goes in, gets owned by RP/BH/crono/silenced n shit and loses the DR, game over, your carry is useless and the enemy is stronger, game over.

arguing for the sake of arguing just makes you seem like a fucking idiot OP

think I saw it once, somewhere.
it was rushed on sniper and team built around him, think it worked too.

strategy looks easy on the paper but actually put into test and been used in competitive tournaments it take balls for anyteam out there. rapier is an item that can turns the game around if is necessary not as in your part of strategy plan theys way more useful item on slark then a rapier.
and u need to know the pressure on pro player in a competitive tournaments are huge.buying a item that can be dropped and can been picked by the other team that deals 300dmg per hit i doubt any of the pro team is gone try out this risky strategy.

p/s throwing a game that u go rapier as your first item in competitive gaming would be retarded as a pro player bet after that game the criticism from the fan is gone make you retiring from pro-gaming career.

On the second thoughts if you want your team to become a bigger thrower then EG then this is the perfect strategy.

Sidenote: Magnus can't disable slark for longer than 1.5 seconds if the Slark is anygood due to darkpact.

@Blunt: In that situation, Slark concedes the rax instead of throwing the game. How does the non DR hero fight that anyway?
Also there are counters to blackhole and chrono, say Song of the Siren/Global Silence when ults come out.
In the rapier meta everyone will pick heroes around it of course. It will all be about disables/ counter disables.

clearly everyone should just start picking omniknight........

@Sampson: I'm discussing because I'm genuinely curious about why divine rapier is not in competitive games.

@xan: Good game, is what inspired this thread really.

@k3v: I agree that a team needs balls and a lot of yoga (lol) to practice and play this. But I think it is a solid strategy. Also please make an argument for why rapier can only be used for a comeback.

@Sampson: The problem still is purges removing repel but with slark this not a problem. (Unless BrewMaster's purge can hit invisible units, anyone know? Bonus points if you have ever used Brew's purge, coz I did this one time :p)

people have told you exactly why but you keep ignoring it. DR is only a real item on gyro/medusa (even then it is only made to turn over a lost match) It is not worth the risk (0 utility) compare it to items like butterfly evasion mkb ministun or abyssal blade's stun it just doesnt hold up

pro players(shit even people in the lower end of VH will too) will just make force staffs/euls to easily deal with whoever he targets

So Slark just changes targets? He's at max movespeed with Mom, boots and ult.

@shawn : first of all rapier cost 6k and can be dropped and your playing in major tournaments mistake are expected,unless your losing 2 set of racks and theys no other way for comeback rapier is the item choice to go for a yolopush Na'vi went for rapier build at the end when facing fnatic that did work out well but did nearly losing 2 rapier on gyro.don't get me wrong rapier is not a 100percent comeback item u still can be focus down.

you realize his ulti change was a heavy nerf right? 4secs means you have to take into account getting into the fight (you can pounce but that will limit your burst/lockdown) also there is no pro dota team that would NOT kick someone who built a MoM with a rapier unless they are 5secs from killing the ancient. Unless the enemy team is sitting directly on top of each other the ulti only gives you time to target one player

Rapier in Slark in a competitive game? ROFL
The only heroes which use Rapier well are heroes that can hit multiple targets, ie Gyro and Medusa.

@k3v
Yep rapier costs 6k ok; that's comparable to radiance mind you, which is picked up now and then.
And with mistakes on your side you lose a rapier and they gain one. And with mistakes on their side, they get punished severely by a rapier wielding carry; double rax easily.

@Sampson: I think his ulting was actually a heavy buff imo, at the pro level atleast, where they use detection.
And yes Slark would suck at disabling, so his team would need disablers.

@sano: Rapier MoM being unpunishable for 4 seconds makes slark viable in a competitive game.
And yes I think the Medusa and Gyro could be pretty good.

(Edit) Ok gyro can still use DR with flak, never mind I'm hallucinating I guess.

@Shawn:
Silencer, nigma with BKB, GG WP DR on enemyteam.

As i said, 2 risky.

@Blunt
If rapiers actually become standard, then disabler's would become 1st pick/ban.
So if you let the team get enough in drafting then yes you would lose it. The game would become about initiating/counter disabling (as apposed to any kind of damage heroes) as the damage from rapier would be enough.

Tier One Picks/Bans might be:
Slark, Omni, Medusa
Enigma, Magnus, Naga, Void(lol maybe), Silencer(maybe)

^
Thats just an example, we could also just get heroes like doom, bounty hunter (prevent his farm), morphling (eblade = useless slark) and so on. There so many ways on countering it. This is what im getting at, its way 2 risky, there tons of ways to get the carry while your own team cant do shit against it, basicly youll lose DR and the game.

It CAN work, but the risk is just way 2 high, since the teams are playing for money and not only for fame, makes it unacceptable to go with such a strat.

@shawn without rapier while you have advantage is a 70/30 game pretty much with some safe play the game is secured.with the rapier and been dropped is back to 50/50 and if that happen in a major tournament am sure the team that just dropped the rapier would play more passive then going more aggressive.

Shawn I am sorry to say but you have like 0 game knowledge and you just ignore what other people tell you. You did not come here to ask a question you came here to tell people about your "next big thing". Saying things like "it was a buff because pro gamers bring detection" shows how little knowledge you have about invis heroes (BH is alive a well even with pro teams always having detection). You came here and asked a question like 50 people told you why it was wrong but you wont let it go for some odd reason

OP, you have no idea what you are talking about. Stick to whatever supertafe or bogan school you are at and keep flipping those burgers.

Blunt:
How do you doom a perma invis slark?
How does bounty prevent his farm? I don't follow sorry.
How do you eblade an invis, magic immune slark? (Sidenote: Can darkpact ethereal off anyway)

Also about risk being to high. High risk is not a problem. Bad odds are a problem.
Bet 1 dollar. Roll 100 sided dice. If number is 42, then get $50.
Bet 1 dollar. Roll 100 sided dice. If number is 42, then get $200.
I would do the second, but not the first. Both are high risk.

You do realise that items like Butterfly/Hex/Abyssal are arguably more effective than rapier in many situations right?

@Shawn:
- Ever heard of Lothars or a disable (like storm spirit, puck or an other mobile hero)?
- You never played against a good BH early game?
- How does the invis slark attack an ebalded morph, unless you start to reprogram the game ofc?

You cannot compare a teamgame to 'luck' bro.

no he doesnt he has no idea what he is talking about and I am too lazy to do the math on the actual dmg output of other similar cost items . Where the hell is relentless when you need him

^
dont worry, he WILL show up, these kinds of threads are HIS threads :'D

k3v: I'll get back to you soon after your post after I do some math on that.

Sampson: I have 2377 hours playing dota. I'd say I'm average skill level.
I haven't ignored anything. I did not pioneer the rapier strat nor have I claimed to. As I said earlier I was inspired to make this thread after watching a game with sniper omni rapier (competitive).
BountyHunter can not carry MoM rapier safely whereas Slark can, as he is undetectable as of patch 6.79. That is the difference.

Terrible: So insightful, ty

battlefury gives more +dmg than desolator therefore you hit harder with battlefury

and no sorry hours played (games played as well) does not mean you know what the hell you are talking about

How the hell is slark going to kill anyone after his leash wears off? Everyone is going to kite/disable/run away, makes no sense. I could see possible putting this on a tanky ranged like medusa, but no way I'd ever try it on a melee.

Terrible: Yes they are but not when Slark is bkbed and invisible.

Blunt:
-I have heard of lothars and disables yes. Detection and bkb can counter. I don't get how this ties in tho.
-I have played against a good BH early game yes. Are you saying he wrecks Slark somehow?
-He attacks other heroes?

let me put it this way slark is been auto-banned in captain mode.if you gone use this strategy in pub while your 5 man stacking then theys nothing wrong with it .

You aren't even looking at it from the other side of the coin. What if you can't farm that? Then are you simply fucked and there is nothing to do about it.

Sampson: Ok, granted. But you said I had 0 knowledge/experience, which was untrue.

Mark: Well you would get heroes like Tide, Enigma, Magnus, etc
Slark will be the dps only.

k3v: Ok, ty for your approval I guess, but the tread was about Slark in competitive games.
If the thread was 'Will Slark be played by pros when he is allowed in CM?' would you respond with:
'Well he's not allowed yet so there is no point talking about it. /thread'

Sam: Radiance is really good on Spectre right? But what if you can't farm it? Then you are simply fucked and there is nothing to do about it, right?

Also thank you for discussing this with me guys. Besides a few , I felt like this was productive.

@shawn : is kinda of pointless to discuss a hero strategy when u don't even know when icefrog is gone release him out probably when the time he gets unbanned hes ult is gone be nerfed. #offtopic if this was a thread 'pa going rapier'i would totally agree +1000000 :D

k3v: Well, on the surface it indeed does look like Slarks ult was nerfed, but I think it opens up the door to rapier. But will IceFrog spot the implications? If he doesn't then this thread would be relevant.
On the other hand, I may very well be wrong and their could be a massive counter that I haven't thought of.

Also pa+omni = hawt action but is conterable by purges (diffusal blade) and banes ult, dismember etc.

Purges remove OmniKnights Repel for those that didn't know.

Still luv pa tho.

Really? Spectre and Radiance? That was a retarded thing to say. You are picking 2 completely out of meta heroes to try this out and you pretend it won't fail even if you don't do things right.

Sam: Change it to Anti-mage and battlefury then.

Relying a 4sec invisibility and magic immunity from omni COULD work in a certain situation. If it works, it worka like a charm and you wont need a DR. And if it fails it will fail horribly, throws your hard earned DR
Seripusly, im a slark player and i think that this build is highly situational. If you ever used slark in yhe new patch, no matter how buffer or nerfed he is, there are always some situation that will be a disadvantage. Like the mentioned chrono and ghost scepting... Or juat simply bait you to pop up your ult then back off till 4 sec run out.

Shawn you are too stupid to realize it was a nerf, the insane CD and the duration nerfed it. Yes he can not be targeted for 4 sec but he also is a melee hero who has to get into melee range. It is a buff to the low bracket noobs who spam detection on him now tho so I guess I see where you might see it as a buff........

UberFlux: I believe it would be advantageous to draft a Slark rapier viable situation due to Slark rapier being so powerful.
Yes I agree it is high risk but do not agree high risk is bad. Bad odds are bad.

Sorry if you already read this; from earlier:

Bet 1 dollar. Roll 100 sided dice. If number is 42, then get $50.
Bet 1 dollar. Roll 100 sided dice. If number is 42, then get $200.
I would do the second, but not the first. Both are high risk.

And you would draft so you couldn't get baited into blowing Slark's ult. Like with a Tide, Enigma with blink etc

You still don't get the point. You simply have to pick 2 heroes that are normally out of meta just to do this. And even the slightest mistake will ruin it.

Sampson: I see it the opposite way around actually. I see it as a nerf to low level play and
a buff to high level play.
Low level no one carries detection much so he can afford to be detectable.
High level the ground is littered with sentry wards but he can't be focused after 6.79 because they can't target him.

Also he has a pseudo blink and while MoM and invis you will move as 522 max.