he ain't a hard carry.. don't see how people can argue that.
ember is a glass canon. hits like a truck but dies extremely easy if you build him full dps.
arcane are incredibly useful early/mid game. late after you have 2 furies and points spent in stats they are useless. travel best late boot on him for obvious reasons.
and he can really dish out some dmg in 5v5. so it shouldn't come as a surprise that you will get silenced/doomed/ruptured every time a team fight occurs.
ember's carry potential is greater than you may think, although his 2nd skill do fall off as weaker when there are not many creeps/units gathered together, however, when there are 5-6 units it is enough for ember to hit hard.
once i had these items, phase(transitioned from mana to late game), linkens, bfury x2 bruiza x2, i use 2nd on maxed out am when he is pushing with 1 creep wave, one single 2nd skill and he lost more than 1/2 of his hp.
in massive team pushings, if there are furion/enigma etc when there are 10+ creeps, 1 slight of fist will basically demolish their entire team if they are attacking the tower
lastly, a good ember player will understand ember's weaknesses and not charge in directly when 5v5 late game, by using slight of fist here and there is simply crushing blows to enemies if you have some dps items
i dont think it was his intention to mean that, more as he is trying to emphasize xin is only a semi carry not a hardcore carry
i disagree with that though, xin is by far one of the strongest carry in team fights in par with void am etc late game, in fact better at times, obviously its situational, such as void late game without chrono is relatively weak compared to ember, and obviously ember would get crushed 1v1 vs void late game, but thats doesn't matter since late game majority is made from one or two crucial team fights
i consider ember to be a late game agility storm spirit, since he can dish out real dps, and he is just as mobile as storm if his ulti is not on cool down
its may not be his intention but that is what he is pushing towards. Outside of his boots Xin's items are pretty much universal and relentless it making a huge deal over "buy arcane boots and win as many games as TC or buy phase boots and lose like that fgt Singsing".
i've tried bstone on ember in my past few games, its actually quite amazing on how useful it is, the extra 500 bouns hp/mana is priceless since the hero is squishy itself, and by mid-game i usually have 20 charges which allows me to insta-revive and tp back to my spirit to help in team fights, late game is basically another free buyback
a core reason why i think mana boots early game is a must is because if you aren't killing heros at lvl 6 with xin, you aren't playing the hero right, however, you won't have sufficient mana for 3 ulti rem combo + chain and shield if you don't have mana boots. At the sametime, by sometimes skipping bottle and directly go for mana boots, which is 1000 extra, it will solve you all the mana issues you have early game, which phase + bottle + stick + drum wont solve nearly as well, which adds up to 900 + 600+ 400 + 1750 = a price that can almost get you a bfury
while bloodstone might seem like a good amount of health his insanely low armor makes that health drop like it is nothing. And if you have 20 charges of bloodstone you could make mass tranq boots and the pubstomp would still continue
its just a transitioning item, i used to transition into linkens but mana boots would be a waste, you won't understand untill you try it out
if you go phase directly into bfury, u'd be pbly farming half of the time and it wouldnt matter if you win after your burizas etc since you probably got carried by your team regardless of what items you get, any fair non-one sided game you will most likely get crushed with phase drum and directly into fury build, since you have 0 survivalbility and you won't have the mana to escape after initation
anyhow i'm finished with this tread, regardless of what people argue in terms of skill build and item build, i recommend everyone to try all of them in a standard match up and you'll soon realize which one is the ideal choice for you, for instance, if you suck at solo mid/ganking/rune control/map awareness, safe lane ember would be a better choice etc
ember is one of the top skill-cap heros in game, if you aren't good and you get bloodstone/mana boots etc, you'll get crushed, it's a fast pace hero throughout the whole game, it requires extremely fast reflexes in team fights because the hero can potentially dodge anything with 2nd and ulti combined
ember's awful-mediocre mid against good ranged mids, TC only rapes because he's TC. the first time i saw him pre-ti2 i think(?) i immediately thought he's one of the best NA players and still is imo. he can play multiple roles and heroes at the very top tier which not many players can achieve. he also stacked lots of those games with qojqva and arteezy+1.
in reality the hero just struggles against heroes like puck, sf, tinker, storm and so on simply because he has no safe waveclear ability like other melee mids and has a weak armor. he has to be in melee to take the creeps out and his "survivability" skill is directly tied to most of his damage output in earlygame. before 6 you're going to have really hard time against players of equal or even slightly inferior skill at highest levels.
if you go mid against a ranged hero you need 100% stout shield and probably double regen which will set your bottle back by quite a lot time. you also most likely won't be getting the first 2 runes unless the opposing mid messes up badly. i think the itembuild is great though, deso and especially crit make sleight do insane amounts of damage and can oneshot later in the game supports. i think arcanes and drum is overkill but i suppose the stat boost is fine, drum's really all around item that can be made on any hero.
vs those yeah, excluding sf as he rapes sf. but those others do give him a hard time. just like pugna or viper and plenty of super aggressive range heroes.
It's like saying that phase boots on windrunner is a bad choice. mid lane or offlane WRs almost always get phase boots regardless of her high mana cost spells, and arcane boots is still good choice.
>you should ALWAYS solo mid with ember as it is one of the unbeatable mid heros except by maybe OD, basically what i'm saying is that you should almost never lose mid with thsi hero because of imbalanced abilities early game, only if you know how to use him though
just wanted to comment on this hilarious post since i somehow missed it. if you wanna do 1v1 i'll gladly play any of the heroes i mentioned earlier if you want to make a clown out of yourself
I think the problem with earth is he is squishy as hell. He doesn't have any tanky skills, even though he's a str hero, he needs tons of mana. He reminds me of earthshaker. Earthshaker is maybe a bit easier to setup kills though. But he's pretty strong in lane early. Drop stone totems behind enemy, geo grip em to you for the stun, whack is back out at them for dmg and silence, roll into them for slow and kills. I think his scaling might just need to be adjusted a bit, he has some good utility.
Downside is it's pretty easy to dodge him if he's just the least bit slow, since all you need to do is not be in between his path and the stone thing.
Bloodstone on Xin Wtf am i reading a bottle and some stats are more then enough since u have the ability to go fontain and comeback (either tp or walk if u have phase ) in 40+ games with him i still didnt have mana problems getting phase drums to gain the momentum during the early mid game and proceed to snowball ( btw i play him only mid )
still arcan boots are not a bad choice if ur are laning with a disabler in the offlane for example and you are not going bottle
or even in your safe lane and want to participate in the early clashes ( cuz this hero isn't suppose to afk farm ) but i suggest to sell the energy boster after the 20min for either BOT"s or phase ( dont underestimate thos 24 damage in a SOF and the ability to chase with flame guard on )
and for the late game scenario as every body probably know stacking 3bfs + crit + more dps is just beast since u can deal 1200+ damage to the whole enemy team in a single SOF and destroy the creep wave its realy impossible to push with a stacked xin like that and dont forget that xin is the best hero to deal with split pushers and stuff since u can leave a remnant with you'r team pushing tp def and comeback .
ps : btw i am searching for a good magnus to have fun with my xin :D .
ps 2 : sry for bad english
Seriously though, I'll throw this one at you guys too: treads, drum, urn for ember. Limited testing with it, but seems to be incredibly effective from what I've seen of it so far.
Urn/mask provides enough regen when combined with a couple other int items. The heal is also amazing on a low health hero like ember.
Drum is a good all around item.
Treads are just amazing on a glass cannon like ember when aggressively switching. Gives him that extra mana needed for his opening burst and the slight bit of tankyness to be able to stick around if need be(or tank that tower hit or two).
The treads don't really mix well with the w I know, but they don't fall off like arcane boots do and they provide what you need in the early game.
And I'll be honest, I haven't tested the build that extensively nor other builds for that matter, and it's all been pubs/bots but...still in theory, it's pretty effective.
dunno what ur talking about, dont care, all im going to say is xin is fuckin ruined. the nerfs just ruined this hero, they nerfed every single thing, even his stats, lvl 6 u cant even use ulti 2x without arc, this is complete bullshit.
Even TINY has more armor than xin which is agi hero.
because those are the best items, you need burst damage. he doesn't have survivability problems in late or midgame, it's the first levels he's struggling in
That may not seem like much but this is on a sample of hundreds of thousands of games. IF your personal long term winrate was 4% higher you would think it was a big deal. The same is true for a pub hero average.
Hi, I know I'm noob, but I like to play my Ember on solo mid, with Perseverance and Bottle as first items, then phase and at least 1 battlefury
2nd core item would be AC since the poor armor
I know I only played him only 1 time on dota 2 but I have played on dota 1 a lot of times
This is the match http://dotabuff.com/matches/390817833 I dont consider him as a hard carry, but a good ganker and a semi-carry
And about Earth spirit, I think valve has to change his recommended items and role, since hes more like a ganker on early game, and a support/tank for the rest of the game, people who didnt play these heros on dota 1 and believe eveything valve says are going to have a bad time
Ember has great damage potential but low starting stats and poor stat growth which means he has a low mana pool, low heath, and low armor. He is also melee who has all of his spells REQUIRING him to be in the middle/melee of the fight to do maximum damage. He is not a carry, he is a ganker. You take him to the middle lane, you get your 6, you farm your CORE Vanguard, Arcane boots, Desolator. Proceed to win.
I know, I know: Vanguard? WTF? That's not core in ANYONE. Ember has damage, he has mobility. His is a mid-game hero. Vanguard is a midgame item. You can effectively get it at 8-10 minutes- Right when you start to go ganking. After a successful gank or two, you now have Arcanes. You can now effectively stay on the map permanently. You are now only limited by your Remanent charges. Vanguard gives everything Xin needs. Health, damage block to make up for his shit armor, regen, and its easy to build up, you should be getting stout anyway when you go into mid lane as a starting item.
Its not enough to just get health on Ember, he needs the damage block because he also has low armor. Once you get vanguard, you are pretty much turn from one of the squishiest heroes in your match to the tankiest.
Battlefury has a huge buildup during the time you should be diving, it is also orientation based, meaning wherever you sleight, your "hero" illusion's orientation will determine cleave angle. It is also completely based on your enemie's positioning. And last as to why Battlefury Ember is bad = It deals only half damage to creeps, which means any damage you DO manage to cleave is cut in half.
Maelstrom in dota 2 doesnt allow a second proc of the chain as long as the first one is in use, it is also punished as an orb by positioning- meaning that if they aren't bunched up together, you cant guarantee the bounce will hit their whole team.
This is why Desolator is core. Deso not only gives you straight up damage, it gives you an orb that not only helps your damage, but it also helps your team: allowing you to teamfight (something he is sorely lacking after the ganking stage) with -6 armor on their entire team. Transition this into a Daedalus and thats pretty much GG if your team has a proper carry. The crit stacks with your bonus damage from Sleight of fist. Keep that in mind and watch as you Sleight a whole team's health down by half, and can even kill squishy heroes out-right.
The thing to remember is Ember is not a carry, and shouldnt be played as one. He is a ganker/initiator, with a possibility of semi-carrying midgame. Keep in mind that as a ganker/diver, he needs mana because his DPS is all in his high mana cost skills and he needs health because he is squishy as hell with low health and virtually no armor. You don't wanna feed with this guy.
Its a cheap item, that is easy to build up, and allows you to not feed the entire game, which means you can now focus on more important core items. People saying he needs damage are wrong. He has great damage from his Flame Guard, Searing Chains, and Sleight of Fist bonus damage at the starting levels. Ember's damage is tied up in his mana. If you dont have enough mana to get off your skills and stay in the fight, you're useless. The time you need to start getting real damage items is when the team fights and pushes start happening, which usually happen after the ganking stage.
I have tried going for Urn, Drums, and both at one point. These two items dont fix something that really hits Xin just as hard as low health: Low armor. I mean, if you're going to go for urn and drum, which end up costing you more than 2500 gold yet dont really fix your problems, why not save the gold and spend it on Vanguard and Arcane's which is more effective than both put together? Not to mention it ends up fixing all 4 of his core issues as a hero: His low mana pool, his need for burst mana, his low health, and his low armor.
Also, Xin doesnt need mana regeneration. This is, again, stated a problem based off of his stats. He needs BURST mana regeneration. Only Arcane boots offers this. He has such low intelligence yet relies almost completely on high cost, low cooldown mana spells relative to his mana pool. Things like Aquila Ring, Urn, and even Drums do not offer what Arcanes can do for Xin, which is insure that he will get off all of his skills in one rotation, and the proceed to have options. He has low cooldown spells with the exception of Flameguard, why not focus on his strengths?
The issue I have with these comments in this discussion is people are continually trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Every hero has to "carry" in these pubs, yet they dont see that Xin's full potential is 100% ganker with the possibility of initiating and some SEMI-carry potential during the midgame. To play this hero optimally, you need to play him as a mid lane, mid-game ganker. Period. Leave the battlefuries for Antimage, someone who can actually carry against a good, coordinated team that wont bunch up for your battlefury sleights of fists.
The best combo is Bots deso and crit, these Items synergies perfectly with his skill. You do not need mana boots on him, use Bots to go home get mana then use ulti to go back to lane. Deso makes his Sof deal more effective dmg and criting on that 120 bonus dmg is actually huge. If you look at the item winrate all 3 of those items hold 70% far more than these other builds.
Except that Boots of Travel does not fix one of your core issues and actually limits you during critical team-fights. You need the extra mana DURING the fight for your spells (which have extremely low cooldowns) and you need your PRECIOUS Remanents for team-fight positioning ,intiating, and escaping, not so you can waste 1 valuable Remanent to go back to base. Too many times you will see that the difference between life and death for Xin is that 1 extra Remanent if you are playing this hero to his max potential. You cannot disengage a fight to just fill up your mana, and then proceed to Teleport back to the closest friendly NPC, the fights are more often than not determined in the first 10 seconds of battle, especially in the the higher brackets.
With boots of travel you will still have a low mana pool and you will still have no reliable way outside of bottle for burst mana regeneration. You may argue fountain is reliable burst, but in a teamfight where their carry is on the escape: I'd rather have the Arcane's and that Extra Remanent, rather than wasting it as an anchor so i can go fill up real quick at the fountain for 10 seconds.
When playing Xin, think of him as a storm and play him as such: Mana = Damage potential. And with such limited amounts of Remanents, this becomes even more critical.
Yeah he needs mana, but that does not mean you have to buy arcane boots on him. I find that having a wand, bottle and a bracer is enough to fulfill his mana issues as long as you as start the fight in peak condition. Also Bots just work better with his ultimate, have you ever been in a position when you get ganked and need to quickly use a spirit to get away? I find that if I quickly press r then d to escape the travel length of the spirit is greatly hindered by the fact that arcanes give little MS, while in the same situation with Bots there seems to be no problem.
I am not saying that mana boots are bad, but If you can afford Bots get them as they are awesome.
Cain have you tried going for deso on him instead of BF?. Personally I find it to be much better. I do play in Very high bracket bro so I do know somewhat if this build works or not.
wande + bottle + bracer = 400 (assuming u bought 3 branches to start with)＋600 + 500ish = 1500, and it still doesn't solve his ulti mana issue since u still won't be able to fully combo, bot is a complete waste early game as you can spend the money on something else thats much more useful
people think deso is good because its -6 armor for everyone in the SOF aoe range, and it is, but its no where comparable to be as good as battle fury
if you get a fury, you'll cleave extra 35% dmg to every single target in range to cleave, so for example if you have 200 dmg, and u have fury, and there is 4 creeps infront of x hero, you'll do 4 times the cleave dmg extra to this hero, in this case, would be 200x0.35x4 which is 280 extra dmg, with just 1 battlefury, with 2 its 600+, 3 900+ etc
yes, the extra dmg will only apply if there are creeps, so if you are 1v1ing obvs it wont apply, but this dmg is gauranteed when your opp is pushing towards you, after you get buriza x 2 after 2 bfuries, 1 crit = their team dead
i've fiended ember every game ever since it came out, i've 1 sh0tted k0ed many 5 heros 1v5 in countless games
the build i'd recommend is mana boots -> bfury (or linkens if they have too much disable and ur snowballing too hard) -> bfury -> buriza buriza (mkb if invasion/divine etc)
get at least 2 bfuries for your true dmg items such as buriza to take affect
for whomever still argues bottle + stick + drum or bracer etc, you aren't understanding the fact you CANNOT combo gank with xin at lvl 6 if you do not have mana boots, and mana boots literally solves EVERY SINGLE mana issue ember has early game, where as bottle stick drum bracer etc cost indefinitely more and doesn't solve his mana problem completely.
Bro you realize that Sof does 50% reduced dmg to creeps? So in reality it would only do 140 extra dmg, also if there you are relying on mass units to deal more effective dmg with battlefury why not just get maelstrom as it will do around the same dmg but be far more likely to actually hit.
What people dont realize is that Xin is jumping around at odd angles while attacking with Sof, this means you cannot really rely on Bf doing consistent dmg. Deso makes enemies take more dmg from 120 you get from Sof and as you said applies -7 armor to all in the aoe, its amazing. The only way Bf will beat Deso is if you have many BF's and the enemy team decides to huddle together allowing you to deal massive dmg, which with a magnus on your team it may be viable.
Also building Bf and mana boots is kinda dumb, yes he needs mana but not to such an extent that you build items like that. Its like saying Storm spirit needs mana so build arcane boots on him, however the common build to go for is to build mana treads instead. If Xin goes mid he needs to buy effective dps items and mobility items. Not picking up bloody mana boots, he has bottle for that which gives 210 mana regen.
It does come down to the situation that you are in tbh, if you are mid you must get bottle to survive the lane. If safe lane farm you will want to be the Dps for the team. If offlane... arcane boots might be viable.
i dont know why people still think mana boots is a core for him, sure its a nice option but phase boots gives u much more killing/ganking potential (chasing, + dmg and such) and dont fall of later in the game... bf is also def. not a core, u have to feel the game.. somegames it will be nice to have 2 or maybe even 3 bfs but in others theyll be useless.. i would say his core is phase drums and then a deso. and unless the game is a complete stomp a bkb or a linkens is a must.
if you're playing mid or offlane where using your mana and ultimate at high rate is important you sure as shit ain't getting phase boots because before drums you have fuckall mana.
@Captain- If you had read my post closely, you would see that I recommended Deso as core, and completely did away with BF unless you are against something like a Phantom Lancer late game.
Also, anyone who advocates phase boots on this hero who already has great chase and no problems with positioning can just go on and buy them phase boots. just dont argue they are a better choice than Arcanes. Especially since Ember's stat growth is so crap that even mid-late game you will be finding yourself with hardly enough mana to keep up with your ganks and teamfights.
I have reviewed your dota match history. The times your enemies went an all carry line-up, you stomped using your "carry" Ember spirit build. The times your enemies got a well rounded team with stuns and disables, you fed, and you fed hard. You have also clocked less than 10 games with Ember. This leads me to believe that not only do you not have the experience necessary to dictate "builds" for this hero, but your skill bracket is so low that any build information that you do come up with would only be relevant to the "average" tier. Thank you for your opinion, but we're talking about High Skill bracket here. Move along, now.
he ain't a hard carry.. don't see how people can argue that.
ember is a glass canon. hits like a truck but dies extremely easy if you build him full dps.
arcane are incredibly useful early/mid game. late after you have 2 furies and points spent in stats they are useless. travel best late boot on him for obvious reasons.
and he can really dish out some dmg in 5v5. so it shouldn't come as a surprise that you will get silenced/doomed/ruptured every time a team fight occurs.
@relentless
ember's carry potential is greater than you may think, although his 2nd skill do fall off as weaker when there are not many creeps/units gathered together, however, when there are 5-6 units it is enough for ember to hit hard.
once i had these items, phase(transitioned from mana to late game), linkens, bfury x2 bruiza x2, i use 2nd on maxed out am when he is pushing with 1 creep wave, one single 2nd skill and he lost more than 1/2 of his hp.
in massive team pushings, if there are furion/enigma etc when there are 10+ creeps, 1 slight of fist will basically demolish their entire team if they are attacking the tower
lastly, a good ember player will understand ember's weaknesses and not charge in directly when 5v5 late game, by using slight of fist here and there is simply crushing blows to enemies if you have some dps items
based on relentless logic buying phase boots on bounty hunter means that players are trying to make bounty hunter into a carry........
i dont think it was his intention to mean that, more as he is trying to emphasize xin is only a semi carry not a hardcore carry
i disagree with that though, xin is by far one of the strongest carry in team fights in par with void am etc late game, in fact better at times, obviously its situational, such as void late game without chrono is relatively weak compared to ember, and obviously ember would get crushed 1v1 vs void late game, but thats doesn't matter since late game majority is made from one or two crucial team fights
i consider ember to be a late game agility storm spirit, since he can dish out real dps, and he is just as mobile as storm if his ulti is not on cool down
its may not be his intention but that is what he is pushing towards. Outside of his boots Xin's items are pretty much universal and relentless it making a huge deal over "buy arcane boots and win as many games as TC or buy phase boots and lose like that fgt Singsing".
i've tried bstone on ember in my past few games, its actually quite amazing on how useful it is, the extra 500 bouns hp/mana is priceless since the hero is squishy itself, and by mid-game i usually have 20 charges which allows me to insta-revive and tp back to my spirit to help in team fights, late game is basically another free buyback
a core reason why i think mana boots early game is a must is because if you aren't killing heros at lvl 6 with xin, you aren't playing the hero right, however, you won't have sufficient mana for 3 ulti rem combo + chain and shield if you don't have mana boots. At the sametime, by sometimes skipping bottle and directly go for mana boots, which is 1000 extra, it will solve you all the mana issues you have early game, which phase + bottle + stick + drum wont solve nearly as well, which adds up to 900 + 600+ 400 + 1750 = a price that can almost get you a bfury
while bloodstone might seem like a good amount of health his insanely low armor makes that health drop like it is nothing. And if you have 20 charges of bloodstone you could make mass tranq boots and the pubstomp would still continue
its just a transitioning item, i used to transition into linkens but mana boots would be a waste, you won't understand untill you try it out
if you go phase directly into bfury, u'd be pbly farming half of the time and it wouldnt matter if you win after your burizas etc since you probably got carried by your team regardless of what items you get, any fair non-one sided game you will most likely get crushed with phase drum and directly into fury build, since you have 0 survivalbility and you won't have the mana to escape after initation
anyhow i'm finished with this tread, regardless of what people argue in terms of skill build and item build, i recommend everyone to try all of them in a standard match up and you'll soon realize which one is the ideal choice for you, for instance, if you suck at solo mid/ganking/rune control/map awareness, safe lane ember would be a better choice etc
ember is one of the top skill-cap heros in game, if you aren't good and you get bloodstone/mana boots etc, you'll get crushed, it's a fast pace hero throughout the whole game, it requires extremely fast reflexes in team fights because the hero can potentially dodge anything with 2nd and ulti combined
storm is not hard carry either.
ember's awful-mediocre mid against good ranged mids, TC only rapes because he's TC. the first time i saw him pre-ti2 i think(?) i immediately thought he's one of the best NA players and still is imo. he can play multiple roles and heroes at the very top tier which not many players can achieve. he also stacked lots of those games with qojqva and arteezy+1.
in reality the hero just struggles against heroes like puck, sf, tinker, storm and so on simply because he has no safe waveclear ability like other melee mids and has a weak armor. he has to be in melee to take the creeps out and his "survivability" skill is directly tied to most of his damage output in earlygame. before 6 you're going to have really hard time against players of equal or even slightly inferior skill at highest levels.
if you go mid against a ranged hero you need 100% stout shield and probably double regen which will set your bottle back by quite a lot time. you also most likely won't be getting the first 2 runes unless the opposing mid messes up badly. i think the itembuild is great though, deso and especially crit make sleight do insane amounts of damage and can oneshot later in the game supports. i think arcanes and drum is overkill but i suppose the stat boost is fine, drum's really all around item that can be made on any hero.
vs those yeah, excluding sf as he rapes sf. but those others do give him a hard time. just like pugna or viper and plenty of super aggressive range heroes.
dmx why did u change your avatar wr cleavage was 10/10
because i like animu and 2hus ^___^
It's like saying that phase boots on windrunner is a bad choice. mid lane or offlane WRs almost always get phase boots regardless of her high mana cost spells, and arcane boots is still good choice.
>you should ALWAYS solo mid with ember as it is one of the unbeatable mid heros except by maybe OD, basically what i'm saying is that you should almost never lose mid with thsi hero because of imbalanced abilities early game, only if you know how to use him though
just wanted to comment on this hilarious post since i somehow missed it. if you wanna do 1v1 i'll gladly play any of the heroes i mentioned earlier if you want to make a clown out of yourself
shit heroes
stop discuss
what on earth are you on about? xin is not unbeatable mid by any stretch of imagination. lay down the pipe.
edit: nm, that was attempt at quote I missed. db has worst forums ever. surprised you even have edit/delete option.
I think the problem with earth is he is squishy as hell. He doesn't have any tanky skills, even though he's a str hero, he needs tons of mana. He reminds me of earthshaker. Earthshaker is maybe a bit easier to setup kills though. But he's pretty strong in lane early. Drop stone totems behind enemy, geo grip em to you for the stun, whack is back out at them for dmg and silence, roll into them for slow and kills. I think his scaling might just need to be adjusted a bit, he has some good utility.
Downside is it's pretty easy to dodge him if he's just the least bit slow, since all you need to do is not be in between his path and the stone thing.
Bloodstone on Xin Wtf am i reading a bottle and some stats are more then enough since u have the ability to go fontain and comeback (either tp or walk if u have phase ) in 40+ games with him i still didnt have mana problems getting phase drums to gain the momentum during the early mid game and proceed to snowball ( btw i play him only mid )
still arcan boots are not a bad choice if ur are laning with a disabler in the offlane for example and you are not going bottle
or even in your safe lane and want to participate in the early clashes ( cuz this hero isn't suppose to afk farm ) but i suggest to sell the energy boster after the 20min for either BOT"s or phase ( dont underestimate thos 24 damage in a SOF and the ability to chase with flame guard on )
and for the late game scenario as every body probably know stacking 3bfs + crit + more dps is just beast since u can deal 1200+ damage to the whole enemy team in a single SOF and destroy the creep wave its realy impossible to push with a stacked xin like that and dont forget that xin is the best hero to deal with split pushers and stuff since u can leave a remnant with you'r team pushing tp def and comeback .
ps : btw i am searching for a good magnus to have fun with my xin :D .
ps 2 : sry for bad english
i am the greatest ember spirit that ever lived!
for whoever said xin is weak against puck/storm/ranged shit
go have a look at my replys vs any heros mid, my fb rate is 80%, i've demolished every single puck/ranged heros with ember mid
if you think ember isn't a strong mid you have no idea how to play this hero no offense
i'm not the one with 60% winrate on him that implies his trashcan games are relevant in any sense though
but i guess i have no idea how to play the hero
Ze theories! Ze theeeeeeories!!!!
Seriously though, I'll throw this one at you guys too: treads, drum, urn for ember. Limited testing with it, but seems to be incredibly effective from what I've seen of it so far.
Urn/mask provides enough regen when combined with a couple other int items. The heal is also amazing on a low health hero like ember.
Drum is a good all around item.
Treads are just amazing on a glass cannon like ember when aggressively switching. Gives him that extra mana needed for his opening burst and the slight bit of tankyness to be able to stick around if need be(or tank that tower hit or two).
The treads don't really mix well with the w I know, but they don't fall off like arcane boots do and they provide what you need in the early game.
And I'll be honest, I haven't tested the build that extensively nor other builds for that matter, and it's all been pubs/bots but...still in theory, it's pretty effective.
^^ as expected
you are getting carried by ex blc pros #cunt :#!
dunno what ur talking about, dont care, all im going to say is xin is fuckin ruined. the nerfs just ruined this hero, they nerfed every single thing, even his stats, lvl 6 u cant even use ulti 2x without arc, this is complete bullshit.
Even TINY has more armor than xin which is agi hero.
That's not true, tiny's armor at level 1 is 0. From dota wiki:
Ember, lvl 1/15/25, 1.08/5.14/9.93
Tiny, lvl 1/15/25, 0.26/2.43/6.08
yes if he doesnt skill his passive
Maybe the problem is people keep building straight dmg items on ember instead of agi ones (battlefury, crystalis, deso seem to be popular).
because those are the best items, you need burst damage. he doesn't have survivability problems in late or midgame, it's the first levels he's struggling in
The problem is
[1] Ember is too hard for most ppl to play and
[2] He needs to get Arcanes to be used to full potential and the recommended items says to get phase.
But even if you do get Arcanes he is still limited greatly by the first problem... he requires to much skill to play for most pubs.
http://dotabuff.com/heroes/ember-spirit/items getting Arcanes instead of phase raises pub winrate 4%
That may not seem like much but this is on a sample of hundreds of thousands of games. IF your personal long term winrate was 4% higher you would think it was a big deal. The same is true for a pub hero average.
bounty hunter has equal win % taking phase boots as treads, lets not pretend like the data means anything
Hi, I know I'm noob, but I like to play my Ember on solo mid, with Perseverance and Bottle as first items, then phase and at least 1 battlefury
2nd core item would be AC since the poor armor
I know I only played him only 1 time on dota 2 but I have played on dota 1 a lot of times
This is the match http://dotabuff.com/matches/390817833
I dont consider him as a hard carry, but a good ganker and a semi-carry
And about Earth spirit, I think valve has to change his recommended items and role, since hes more like a ganker on early game, and a support/tank for the rest of the game, people who didnt play these heros on dota 1 and believe eveything valve says are going to have a bad time
(sorry for bad english)
support/tank for the rest of the game??!!???
you, my friend, are high like a rainbow.
Ember has great damage potential but low starting stats and poor stat growth which means he has a low mana pool, low heath, and low armor. He is also melee who has all of his spells REQUIRING him to be in the middle/melee of the fight to do maximum damage. He is not a carry, he is a ganker. You take him to the middle lane, you get your 6, you farm your CORE Vanguard, Arcane boots, Desolator. Proceed to win.
I know, I know: Vanguard? WTF? That's not core in ANYONE. Ember has damage, he has mobility. His is a mid-game hero. Vanguard is a midgame item. You can effectively get it at 8-10 minutes- Right when you start to go ganking. After a successful gank or two, you now have Arcanes. You can now effectively stay on the map permanently. You are now only limited by your Remanent charges. Vanguard gives everything Xin needs. Health, damage block to make up for his shit armor, regen, and its easy to build up, you should be getting stout anyway when you go into mid lane as a starting item.
Its not enough to just get health on Ember, he needs the damage block because he also has low armor. Once you get vanguard, you are pretty much turn from one of the squishiest heroes in your match to the tankiest.
Battlefury has a huge buildup during the time you should be diving, it is also orientation based, meaning wherever you sleight, your "hero" illusion's orientation will determine cleave angle. It is also completely based on your enemie's positioning. And last as to why Battlefury Ember is bad = It deals only half damage to creeps, which means any damage you DO manage to cleave is cut in half.
Maelstrom in dota 2 doesnt allow a second proc of the chain as long as the first one is in use, it is also punished as an orb by positioning- meaning that if they aren't bunched up together, you cant guarantee the bounce will hit their whole team.
This is why Desolator is core. Deso not only gives you straight up damage, it gives you an orb that not only helps your damage, but it also helps your team: allowing you to teamfight (something he is sorely lacking after the ganking stage) with -6 armor on their entire team. Transition this into a Daedalus and thats pretty much GG if your team has a proper carry. The crit stacks with your bonus damage from Sleight of fist. Keep that in mind and watch as you Sleight a whole team's health down by half, and can even kill squishy heroes out-right.
The thing to remember is Ember is not a carry, and shouldnt be played as one. He is a ganker/initiator, with a possibility of semi-carrying midgame. Keep in mind that as a ganker/diver, he needs mana because his DPS is all in his high mana cost skills and he needs health because he is squishy as hell with low health and virtually no armor. You don't wanna feed with this guy.
good luck
I've seen people go vg on xin before. not too shabby choice.
Its a cheap item, that is easy to build up, and allows you to not feed the entire game, which means you can now focus on more important core items. People saying he needs damage are wrong. He has great damage from his Flame Guard, Searing Chains, and Sleight of Fist bonus damage at the starting levels. Ember's damage is tied up in his mana. If you dont have enough mana to get off your skills and stay in the fight, you're useless. The time you need to start getting real damage items is when the team fights and pushes start happening, which usually happen after the ganking stage.
I have tried going for Urn, Drums, and both at one point. These two items dont fix something that really hits Xin just as hard as low health: Low armor. I mean, if you're going to go for urn and drum, which end up costing you more than 2500 gold yet dont really fix your problems, why not save the gold and spend it on Vanguard and Arcane's which is more effective than both put together? Not to mention it ends up fixing all 4 of his core issues as a hero: His low mana pool, his need for burst mana, his low health, and his low armor.
Also, Xin doesnt need mana regeneration. This is, again, stated a problem based off of his stats. He needs BURST mana regeneration. Only Arcane boots offers this. He has such low intelligence yet relies almost completely on high cost, low cooldown mana spells relative to his mana pool. Things like Aquila Ring, Urn, and even Drums do not offer what Arcanes can do for Xin, which is insure that he will get off all of his skills in one rotation, and the proceed to have options. He has low cooldown spells with the exception of Flameguard, why not focus on his strengths?
The issue I have with these comments in this discussion is people are continually trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Every hero has to "carry" in these pubs, yet they dont see that Xin's full potential is 100% ganker with the possibility of initiating and some SEMI-carry potential during the midgame. To play this hero optimally, you need to play him as a mid lane, mid-game ganker. Period. Leave the battlefuries for Antimage, someone who can actually carry against a good, coordinated team that wont bunch up for your battlefury sleights of fists.
The best combo is Bots deso and crit, these Items synergies perfectly with his skill. You do not need mana boots on him, use Bots to go home get mana then use ulti to go back to lane. Deso makes his Sof deal more effective dmg and criting on that 120 bonus dmg is actually huge. If you look at the item winrate all 3 of those items hold 70% far more than these other builds.
Except that Boots of Travel does not fix one of your core issues and actually limits you during critical team-fights. You need the extra mana DURING the fight for your spells (which have extremely low cooldowns) and you need your PRECIOUS Remanents for team-fight positioning ,intiating, and escaping, not so you can waste 1 valuable Remanent to go back to base. Too many times you will see that the difference between life and death for Xin is that 1 extra Remanent if you are playing this hero to his max potential. You cannot disengage a fight to just fill up your mana, and then proceed to Teleport back to the closest friendly NPC, the fights are more often than not determined in the first 10 seconds of battle, especially in the the higher brackets.
With boots of travel you will still have a low mana pool and you will still have no reliable way outside of bottle for burst mana regeneration. You may argue fountain is reliable burst, but in a teamfight where their carry is on the escape: I'd rather have the Arcane's and that Extra Remanent, rather than wasting it as an anchor so i can go fill up real quick at the fountain for 10 seconds.
When playing Xin, think of him as a storm and play him as such: Mana = Damage potential. And with such limited amounts of Remanents, this becomes even more critical.
Yeah he needs mana, but that does not mean you have to buy arcane boots on him. I find that having a wand, bottle and a bracer is enough to fulfill his mana issues as long as you as start the fight in peak condition. Also Bots just work better with his ultimate, have you ever been in a position when you get ganked and need to quickly use a spirit to get away? I find that if I quickly press r then d to escape the travel length of the spirit is greatly hindered by the fact that arcanes give little MS, while in the same situation with Bots there seems to be no problem.
I am not saying that mana boots are bad, but If you can afford Bots get them as they are awesome.
Cain have you tried going for deso on him instead of BF?. Personally I find it to be much better. I do play in Very high bracket bro so I do know somewhat if this build works or not.
wande + bottle + bracer = 400 (assuming u bought 3 branches to start with)＋600 + 500ish = 1500, and it still doesn't solve his ulti mana issue since u still won't be able to fully combo, bot is a complete waste early game as you can spend the money on something else thats much more useful
people think deso is good because its -6 armor for everyone in the SOF aoe range, and it is, but its no where comparable to be as good as battle fury
if you get a fury, you'll cleave extra 35% dmg to every single target in range to cleave, so for example if you have 200 dmg, and u have fury, and there is 4 creeps infront of x hero, you'll do 4 times the cleave dmg extra to this hero, in this case, would be 200x0.35x4 which is 280 extra dmg, with just 1 battlefury, with 2 its 600+, 3 900+ etc
yes, the extra dmg will only apply if there are creeps, so if you are 1v1ing obvs it wont apply, but this dmg is gauranteed when your opp is pushing towards you, after you get buriza x 2 after 2 bfuries, 1 crit = their team dead
i've fiended ember every game ever since it came out, i've 1 sh0tted k0ed many 5 heros 1v5 in countless games
the build i'd recommend is mana boots -> bfury (or linkens if they have too much disable and ur snowballing too hard) -> bfury -> buriza buriza (mkb if invasion/divine etc)
get at least 2 bfuries for your true dmg items such as buriza to take affect
for whomever still argues bottle + stick + drum or bracer etc, you aren't understanding the fact you CANNOT combo gank with xin at lvl 6 if you do not have mana boots, and mana boots literally solves EVERY SINGLE mana issue ember has early game, where as bottle stick drum bracer etc cost indefinitely more and doesn't solve his mana problem completely.
Bro you realize that Sof does 50% reduced dmg to creeps? So in reality it would only do 140 extra dmg, also if there you are relying on mass units to deal more effective dmg with battlefury why not just get maelstrom as it will do around the same dmg but be far more likely to actually hit.
What people dont realize is that Xin is jumping around at odd angles while attacking with Sof, this means you cannot really rely on Bf doing consistent dmg. Deso makes enemies take more dmg from 120 you get from Sof and as you said applies -7 armor to all in the aoe, its amazing. The only way Bf will beat Deso is if you have many BF's and the enemy team decides to huddle together allowing you to deal massive dmg, which with a magnus on your team it may be viable.
Also building Bf and mana boots is kinda dumb, yes he needs mana but not to such an extent that you build items like that. Its like saying Storm spirit needs mana so build arcane boots on him, however the common build to go for is to build mana treads instead. If Xin goes mid he needs to buy effective dps items and mobility items. Not picking up bloody mana boots, he has bottle for that which gives 210 mana regen.
It does come down to the situation that you are in tbh, if you are mid you must get bottle to survive the lane. If safe lane farm you will want to be the Dps for the team. If offlane... arcane boots might be viable.
i dont know why people still think mana boots is a core for him, sure its a nice option but phase boots gives u much more killing/ganking potential (chasing, + dmg and such) and dont fall of later in the game... bf is also def. not a core, u have to feel the game.. somegames it will be nice to have 2 or maybe even 3 bfs but in others theyll be useless.. i would say his core is phase drums and then a deso. and unless the game is a complete stomp a bkb or a linkens is a must.
bottle itself doesn't fix your mana problems, nor it gives you mana capacity which you will need early on.
if you're playing mid or offlane where using your mana and ultimate at high rate is important you sure as shit ain't getting phase boots because before drums you have fuckall mana.
@Captain- If you had read my post closely, you would see that I recommended Deso as core, and completely did away with BF unless you are against something like a Phantom Lancer late game.
Also, anyone who advocates phase boots on this hero who already has great chase and no problems with positioning can just go on and buy them phase boots. just dont argue they are a better choice than Arcanes. Especially since Ember's stat growth is so crap that even mid-late game you will be finding yourself with hardly enough mana to keep up with your ganks and teamfights.
@Cain DUDE U GO VANGUARD WTF STOP TALKING PLZ
earth spirit have low win rate because players doesnt know how to use his combo properly..
if you know how to earth can be imba
http://dotabuff.com/players/83521842/matches?hero=earth-spirit&game_mode=&match_type=real
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KxZdOeO3iE
I think this top tells a lot about Earth Spirit gameplay
Atum-
I have reviewed your dota match history. The times your enemies went an all carry line-up, you stomped using your "carry" Ember spirit build. The times your enemies got a well rounded team with stuns and disables, you fed, and you fed hard. You have also clocked less than 10 games with Ember. This leads me to believe that not only do you not have the experience necessary to dictate "builds" for this hero, but your skill bracket is so low that any build information that you do come up with would only be relevant to the "average" tier. Thank you for your opinion, but we're talking about High Skill bracket here. Move along, now.