^ warlock and omni are both generally bad, unable to rotate, being one of the reasons. ^^ nah but 2 supports roaming mid with a smoke can win your mid player his lane, simple as that.
NO you priority is the team NOT only the carry. For example rotating to gank a OD vs a puck/storm can stop OD from snowballing and completely carrying the game.
@6_din_49
no you can not stop the offlaner from getting exp BUT you can and MUST stop him from getting alot of it. Whenever I play BH in a pub and I hit lv 6 before the enemy carry I can pretty much snowball and win the game solo.
@Soultrap
I am well aware you have downs you dont have to tell me each thread I post
The reason why most supports say they are broke is because
A) they dont know how to jungle
B) they dont know how to roam
@Dorkly
the abad almost died because you are fucking retarded and started pulling at lv 1.
The reason I made this thread was because I know how hard playing support is and it is really fucking annoying to have people take on the role because it is hard to tell when they fucked up (in comparison with a carry/mid player in which you can check his farm HD etc). Most pub support players are too fucking terrible to last hit on pull camps and then bitch about not having gold for wards.
TLDR: Stop playing support if you are fucking clueless on game mechanics.
I hate 1 support games, but even when I have those, I still try to mix in buying wards and smokes with the limited cash that I have. (even if I only have brown boots as my item)
that is the role of support. If you do not what to buy those items dont play it. That is like playing a carry and bitching and moaning about having to last hit
Its a fucking abaddon i expect the guy to be able to use W sometimes on himself.
btw good luck trying to gank a OD, your mid will have no mana for spells and 5 armor and 315 will make it hard as fuck, unless you know the other support player and you can cordinate a gank, if you are the only support is almost imposible.
Learn2 jungle/gank for gold. Watch any decent 5k+ support and see how they manage to make gold (PROTIP THE LEAVE THE LANE AFTER THEY ZONE OUT OFFLANER)
a storm spirit who refused to play any other hero except ("wel i can't play the rest, gl winning")
morph/venge(me)/lich(offlane)/sand king
vs
mirana(safelane), pugna (mid), shanman/undying/veno
i double stacked the pull camp and warded
they ended up rushing us and i died behind t1 tower :/
shouldn't have tp'd top but i took a risk and wanted to try to get lich a kill on a low hp mirana but he kept pushing lane so that didn't work
he asked for my salve so I gave it to him, (btw are tangos/savles not support items? i didn't know)
i then smoked and ran towards mid to help storm... pugna aggro'd storm to tower as i was comin from behind
storm leaves lane and goes through forest for bot rune while i'm hitting pugna......
and by that time the game is over .__.
i was debating whether or not I should've left bot, but it really looked like a lost lane.
what do you do when you pretty much know that their lane is stronger? do you stay in lane soaking XP? do you just hang around tower/out of vision? if you and try and go back to pull they'll gank you :/
it would be helpful if "5k+ support players" actually recreate the exact same teams to better display/validate what should be done.
That happens a lot with solo queue, i mean when you have to support some weak carry like spectre or void against a strong dual lane, if you go gank mid your carry will probably be fucked, if you go stack and pull he is still going to have problem to last hit and he can even die if the dual lane you are against is really strong, i mean i am not blaming anyone for picking a weak carry or anything like that i am just saying that this kind of situation are really hard to deal with it, basically it doesnt matter what you do your carry will be fucked.
pusher strats demolish pubs because they force you on the defensive and most pub players start attacking each other and cause more dmg to themselves than what the enemy is inflicting.
Sampson, if you play support following your own advice, you will fail in 9 of 10 games. In each of them you will complain that matchmaking gave you a retarded carry that managed to farm only boots in first 10 minutes.
exp is not a big issue when it is dual lane vs dual lane because one side is not going to get a level advantage. If it is 2-1-2 for both teams then all it means is both teams have to deal with it.
for example having 500 gpm as a carry is fine if the other teams carry is getting 500 gpm. It is not fine if you are getting 500 gpm and the other team is getting 900gpm.
If they are killing you in a 2v2 it just means they are playing better than you.......
yeah im not sure what to do when all lanes are losing :/
just sit back and enjoy the view?
the only thing I think I could've done was sit below t1 tower in the jungle and pretend we're not there forcing their aggro onto carry
and hope for the best
@ samp
what u last said doesn't make sense
if you have 900 GPM the likelihood that the other team has 900GPM as well is NOT likely.
That would mean you both have equal farm which means you have practically equal space in most scenarios, and from experience, that doesn't usually happen.
Games that are balanced, or when teams are at a standstill, it is then when I notice that people maybe average 500-800 GPM.
However, when you reach 900-1200 GPM, it's generally lopsided - my experience.
It's too straw-man-like of an explanation samp.
If I kill you with a stronger setup does that mean I'm better?
There's been plenty a time where even offlane goes 1v2 and wins, usually due to the hero being a good offlaner in general, in combo with either the enemy being shitty, or you read your enemy and took the opportunity to kill. Both luck and skill.
@Sampson
What you're describing is 2 supports on one lane. If we are talking about that, say so!
If it's just you and one carry vs let's say a slark/bristleback/windrunner/whatever is popular today, if you left the lane your carry is either dead, either hugs the tower. Against dual lane it's even harder because you need to have your stun ready for whenever the enemies initiate on your carry.
give me a example of a composition that gives you no options. Imo in a even match( I say even because even If I picked NaVi's team when I vs'd them they would still beat me :P) there are plenty of things you can do to change a bad lane into your favor.
Ok, show us a replay where a single support managed to zone the enemy offlaner AND also did the pulling / ganking in order to avoid leeching xp from carry.
why isnt your dual offlane doing the exact same thing to their carry then? Like I said before if they are going dual offlane you always have the option to do a aggressive trilane, dual mid, jungle etc.
I am not sure if this is the right one but you can ask melody I never have a support soaking exp in my safe lane unless they are going for a kill.
I forget who said it in this thread alrdy but as a support you should always be thinking about the next step AND sitting afk in lane is not a step you want to be taking.
@Sampson
You won the lane hard against dual lane, but there was no "zoning" or "pulling". Also you had 26 LH in first 10 minutes because you had to harass the enemies as well.
When you say "zone enemy offlaner in order to give your carry free farm", I'm thinking about something like this: http://dotabuff.com/matches/555667128 Bh got some xp because creep wave was reaching his tower, but jugger had free farm, and you can see the the difference: http://imgur.com/C277Um1 68/4 last hits in 10 minutes.
Edit: look at his hero damage in case you're wondering what was such an epic farmer doing in my bracket.
no, I had low last hits because we where killing them which is zoning them out. Usually a good offlaner would have to play father back and then I would free farm BUT they wanted to fight.
also I forgot to mention that they were flaming me and saying tango/salve were bad items
and that fucking lich was doin that stupid annoying voice shit kinda like peter griffin imitating a nagging wife
I bought few obs wards, no smokes, no sentries, no tangoes, no salves, no clarity potions. No pulling, no zoning, no rotations as well. But... I still had huge impact on this game.
people are people regardless of how skilled they are. For example I dont care if I play with 5 carries on my team when I am practicing my drow I am not going to change to pick rubick to support a random pub
"If you dont rotate out of lane."
This does not really apply too well for Warlock or Omniknight though :/
^ warlock and omni are both generally bad, unable to rotate, being one of the reasons. ^^ nah but 2 supports roaming mid with a smoke can win your mid player his lane, simple as that.
NO you priority is the team NOT only the carry. For example rotating to gank a OD vs a puck/storm can stop OD from snowballing and completely carrying the game.
@6_din_49
no you can not stop the offlaner from getting exp BUT you can and MUST stop him from getting alot of it. Whenever I play BH in a pub and I hit lv 6 before the enemy carry I can pretty much snowball and win the game solo.
@Soultrap
I am well aware you have downs you dont have to tell me each thread I post
The reason why most supports say they are broke is because
A) they dont know how to jungle
B) they dont know how to roam
@Dorkly
the abad almost died because you are fucking retarded and started pulling at lv 1.
The reason I made this thread was because I know how hard playing support is and it is really fucking annoying to have people take on the role because it is hard to tell when they fucked up (in comparison with a carry/mid player in which you can check his farm HD etc). Most pub support players are too fucking terrible to last hit on pull camps and then bitch about not having gold for wards.
TLDR: Stop playing support if you are fucking clueless on game mechanics.
PS my MM is around 4.1~ish
Sampson-sama is correct.
So pick carry and let the support buy all things? Genious.
+1
I hate 1 support games, but even when I have those, I still try to mix in buying wards and smokes with the limited cash that I have. (even if I only have brown boots as my item)
@Sugar
that is the role of support. If you do not what to buy those items dont play it. That is like playing a carry and bitching and moaning about having to last hit
Its a fucking abaddon i expect the guy to be able to use W sometimes on himself.
btw good luck trying to gank a OD, your mid will have no mana for spells and 5 armor and 315 will make it hard as fuck, unless you know the other support player and you can cordinate a gank, if you are the only support is almost imposible.
ganking OD isnt all that hard if you are not fucking awful.....
^Fuck off dude, your mid has no mana ( if its a storm or puck ) he can banish himself to dodge stuns and he is faster than most heroes
its not the funnest when you're support
and u buy smoke/sentry/tango/salve
and then ur team yells at u fort not going support items
LOL WTF
Learn2 jungle/gank for gold. Watch any decent 5k+ support and see how they manage to make gold (PROTIP THE LEAVE THE LANE AFTER THEY ZONE OUT OFFLANER)
i just got bitched out to the max by -
a storm spirit who refused to play any other hero except ("wel i can't play the rest, gl winning")
morph/venge(me)/lich(offlane)/sand king
vs
mirana(safelane), pugna (mid), shanman/undying/veno
i double stacked the pull camp and warded
they ended up rushing us and i died behind t1 tower :/
shouldn't have tp'd top but i took a risk and wanted to try to get lich a kill on a low hp mirana but he kept pushing lane so that didn't work
he asked for my salve so I gave it to him, (btw are tangos/savles not support items? i didn't know)
i then smoked and ran towards mid to help storm... pugna aggro'd storm to tower as i was comin from behind
storm leaves lane and goes through forest for bot rune while i'm hitting pugna......
and by that time the game is over .__.
i was debating whether or not I should've left bot, but it really looked like a lost lane.
what do you do when you pretty much know that their lane is stronger? do you stay in lane soaking XP? do you just hang around tower/out of vision? if you and try and go back to pull they'll gank you :/
it would be helpful if "5k+ support players" actually recreate the exact same teams to better display/validate what should be done.
That happens a lot with solo queue, i mean when you have to support some weak carry like spectre or void against a strong dual lane, if you go gank mid your carry will probably be fucked, if you go stack and pull he is still going to have problem to last hit and he can even die if the dual lane you are against is really strong, i mean i am not blaming anyone for picking a weak carry or anything like that i am just saying that this kind of situation are really hard to deal with it, basically it doesnt matter what you do your carry will be fucked.
they ran a pusher strat and you started pulling camps which helps them more
pusher strats demolish pubs because they force you on the defensive and most pub players start attacking each other and cause more dmg to themselves than what the enemy is inflicting.
I mean, if i cant really pull and i cant zone out the enemy dual lanes, what to do ? Harass in lane ? that sounds like taking exp from your carry.
btw i never flame anyone at the beggining, i usually wait the whole game to flame ( by the end of the game ) :P
Plus i do some kind of " cool " flame, i never got muted sooo .....
Sampson, if you play support following your own advice, you will fail in 9 of 10 games. In each of them you will complain that matchmaking gave you a retarded carry that managed to farm only boots in first 10 minutes.
exp is not a big issue when it is dual lane vs dual lane because one side is not going to get a level advantage. If it is 2-1-2 for both teams then all it means is both teams have to deal with it.
for example having 500 gpm as a carry is fine if the other teams carry is getting 500 gpm. It is not fine if you are getting 500 gpm and the other team is getting 900gpm.
If they are killing you in a 2v2 it just means they are playing better than you.......
@6_din_49
Find me ONE 5k+ support player who says
Zoning out the offlaner is a bad idea
smoke ganking is a bad idea
rotating to different lanes is a bad idea
buying sentries is a bad idea
Stop trying to use the excuse of I MUST ALWAYS BE THERE TO PROTECT ME CARRY as a excuse for being a shitty support who doesnt know when to rotate
yeah im not sure what to do when all lanes are losing :/
just sit back and enjoy the view?
the only thing I think I could've done was sit below t1 tower in the jungle and pretend we're not there forcing their aggro onto carry
and hope for the best
@ samp
what u last said doesn't make sense
if you have 900 GPM the likelihood that the other team has 900GPM as well is NOT likely.
That would mean you both have equal farm which means you have practically equal space in most scenarios, and from experience, that doesn't usually happen.
Games that are balanced, or when teams are at a standstill, it is then when I notice that people maybe average 500-800 GPM.
However, when you reach 900-1200 GPM, it's generally lopsided - my experience.
It's too straw-man-like of an explanation samp.
If I kill you with a stronger setup does that mean I'm better?
There's been plenty a time where even offlane goes 1v2 and wins, usually due to the hero being a good offlaner in general, in combo with either the enemy being shitty, or you read your enemy and took the opportunity to kill. Both luck and skill.
I did not say they are better I said they are playing better. Part of dota is picking the right heroes at the right time AND picking the right lanes.
Playing better = playing your hero better (imo)
But then, how do you differentiate between whether or not you lost because of something you did in particular, or if it's the team match-up?
Do you always pick captain and lay out the teams?
I would think that at that point, it's an entirely different skill in itself.
I watched a video and I liked the way it laid out the 3 main categories for uhhh the things you use in dota.
Mechanics/Builds/Skill
But then now I think there should also be Captain/Leader - would likely have the most knowledge for ingame mechanics and how to scale/change builds.
@Sampson
What you're describing is 2 supports on one lane. If we are talking about that, say so!
If it's just you and one carry vs let's say a slark/bristleback/windrunner/whatever is popular today, if you left the lane your carry is either dead, either hugs the tower. Against dual lane it's even harder because you need to have your stun ready for whenever the enemies initiate on your carry.
give me a example of a composition that gives you no options. Imo in a even match( I say even because even If I picked NaVi's team when I vs'd them they would still beat me :P) there are plenty of things you can do to change a bad lane into your favor.
I just refreshed my "hero healing" record. 12785 healing done in 36 minutes match. This kind of support I like. =3
Zzzzap!
Ok, show us a replay where a single support managed to zone the enemy offlaner AND also did the pulling / ganking in order to avoid leeching xp from carry.
@6_din_49
why isnt your dual offlane doing the exact same thing to their carry then? Like I said before if they are going dual offlane you always have the option to do a aggressive trilane, dual mid, jungle etc.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/556265195 (I have been playing alot of mid recently so I cant remember how each match went)
I am not sure if this is the right one but you can ask melody I never have a support soaking exp in my safe lane unless they are going for a kill.
I forget who said it in this thread alrdy but as a support you should always be thinking about the next step AND sitting afk in lane is not a step you want to be taking.
One must be born as a support to play it right.
so like the example I used in the previous post, what would you have done instead?
which one exactly?
@Sampson
You won the lane hard against dual lane, but there was no "zoning" or "pulling". Also you had 26 LH in first 10 minutes because you had to harass the enemies as well.
When you say "zone enemy offlaner in order to give your carry free farm", I'm thinking about something like this: http://dotabuff.com/matches/555667128 Bh got some xp because creep wave was reaching his tower, but jugger had free farm, and you can see the the difference: http://imgur.com/C277Um1 68/4 last hits in 10 minutes.
Edit: look at his hero damage in case you're wondering what was such an epic farmer doing in my bracket.
no, I had low last hits because we where killing them which is zoning them out. Usually a good offlaner would have to play father back and then I would free farm BUT they wanted to fight.
Or they were feeding, right?
^Judging by their lasthits and GPM, they lost all lanes. One-sided game.
this one
http://dotabuff.com/matches/559784406
also I forgot to mention that they were flaming me and saying tango/salve were bad items
and that fucking lich was doin that stupid annoying voice shit kinda like peter griffin imitating a nagging wife
again with the flames ):
also reminder:
read previous post before lookin at the stats :D
Better take this game as example.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/559828415
I bought few obs wards, no smokes, no sentries, no tangoes, no salves, no clarity potions. No pulling, no zoning, no rotations as well. But... I still had huge impact on this game.
^no you play in the 2k bracket and nothing is required
^Ha-ha. I have 3450 solo rating ATM.
BTW, in what bracket MoM+Blink Dagger actually works on Drow Ranger?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/542552410
around 6k~
but hey I dont expect people in the trenches to know this
^There is only one support and he has no boots.
If thats how 6k looks like, I prefer to stay in trench.
yea its not like he sold his items at the end up the match......
and you dont prefer to stay in the trench, you have 0 choice on the matter unless you buy a account
^And not like they sold all other supports.
Puck, Slardar, Invoker, NP and Slark... I can't even imagine their line-up. Are you sure they are 6k players?
Maybe
Invoker mid, puck off, NP jungle, Slardar+Slark safe... no still shitty...
people are people regardless of how skilled they are. For example I dont care if I play with 5 carries on my team when I am practicing my drow I am not going to change to pick rubick to support a random pub
supports are trench level shit
6k mmr players always play 5 core lineups
http://dotabuff.com/matches/559864183i tryed supporting in this game and it didin't worked too well ;/
@I HATE THIS GAME
You can't support with shadow blade. If item has zero agility it's useless for Drow Ranger. I already told that somewhere...
With right items you can provide every ranged hero in your team, ranged creeps and catapults +148 damage buff.
Now you supporting! =)
Im sure you are the master drow player in the 3k bracket.......
^Like 4k is any different rolf