Rather vague question...
Also, there are plenty of supports that aren't "junglers" but utilize the jungle for farm.
Frankly, there are too many variables to answer your question, and i'm guessing you lost a few games recently with afk junglers.
Depends on how your opponents react because when they let me free farm the jungle with a doom, I can come out with phase midas mek at 15 minutes and just push down towers with my team. So I myself had success in jungle, but I know where you're coming from. I see a lot of junglers and Axe in particular failing to make any impact on the game.
Depends on what hero is jungling and in what time will they come online. Whenever I play ursa I just need like 6 minutes of passive farm. I attemt to kill rosh at minute 4 and than come out with aegis and boots and start killing. Whenever I pick a jungler I ask my team to pick good early-game heroes to be able to play at disadvantage without throwing a game in 5 minutes(which happens commonly).
If you have a furion and a medussa in the same team you lost
I dont care if you are playing your best hero and you killed the enemy mid 10 times in 5 minutes, you lost
jungling is actually really good in pubs provided you dont afk jungle. purely from a theoretical perspective, but actually quite applicable in pubs (though a lot of low level players tend to afk farm):
-junglers offer a lot more game impact but weaken your lanes, so if you already have strong lanes you should grab a jungler over another support. the type of impact tends to vary but is generally push and utility, substantially greater than a support would.
-its a lot lower risk than running say a dual support roaming lineup
-opens up a lane to get solo xp
-plus you get a ton of farm and xp in the jungle
the most common example would be natures prophet jungle, which is actually super strong if the guy actually teleports to lanes, since he can set up a ton of heroes at level 4 and swing fights in your favor while maintaining the same level of farm and gets more levels. he ends up winning mid in most cases with courier snipes and can get you an easy kill if your mid has a rune.
same thing with axe, you can get a 9-10 minute blink tranquils if you jungle efficiently, now youve got yourself another super useful utility and initiation power that has a similar impact to the game as your mid would (similar amounts of farm and levels).
basically since ur rarely going to get completely shut down as a jungler, its a really good idea to jungle, provided you do it efficiently and such that you can be as impactful to your team as early as possible while not crippling the lanes.
I've not read the other comments.
If you go jungle with a carry you'll get low impact on the game. Thus if your team is losing already and you're jungling, you probably lost the game.
If you want to go to the jungle iwth Legion so hardly for some reason, you should try to go for a "highimpact jungle build".
Aka, you don't do as the trashtier would do by going 0-4-4 orwhatever,
but you go 4-1-1 and buy a bottle trying to help out other lanes when needed. If you suspect a gank coming to mid, go defend mid using this 2nd spell to dispells stuns and what not.
If you go jungle, just think about having impact.
Don't go Lifestealer jungle and farm a midas and keep farming for 20min.
Actually, most of the comments are fine. Maybe if you weren't so condescending, people might listen to you more....
At least you were right about this though....
now imagine if everyone had his attitude, nobody would ever get better or listen to each other or anything
especially when he pretty much just repeated what was said
Oh sorry, I didn't realize what I actually wrote there. I've been awake for 37hours now without sleep sweeping down redbull to stay awake for ESL. (Don't ask why, I didnt manage to fall asleep..) Thus didn't really think about what I wrote.
Generally I have a good attitude unless there's people I dislike. And I have nothing against anyone here, owell. Despite Hatsune Miku.
WHY/WHEN GO JUNGLE GUIDE FOR NOOBS:
Jungle allows maximization of xp across the board for all 5 heroes - assuming u have a hero that can handle 2v1 situation eg. cw or ds
u can lane 1-1-3, with one support zoning out the offlaner for the carry, and the other support/jungler farming nc
WHY AM I ALWAYS LOSING WHEN THERES A JUNGLER
Chances are the jungler is fucking blind/doesnt support his lane, and/or u guys picked heroes that does not have strong enough lane presence to handle 2v3/1v2 situations
WHY DO PEOPLE GO JUNGLE AT LOWER MMR?
Its relatively safer than laning, u can almost afk farm hence if u get people like that on your team, you must pick heavy lifting heroes
People almost always pick hard carries in pubs. which means that carry wont be protected by a trilane but rather put in a duel lane, which means they will have trouble farming well. Thats how i see it anyway.
I had very good games on Sand King recently. I discovered strength of jungling on hero who can do it efficiently. Usually I just AFK farm to get my Blink Dagger in <10 minutes (timing depends on how many wards, sentries, courier&upgrade I have to buy, also on number of mud golems). With Dagger and ultimate I just go and kll somebody, it's really easy.
This kind of jungling works perfectly in my 3,8k trash bracket. So I don't know why topicstarter so mad.
Because other junglers such as chen or enchantress can do it while ganking safe/mid multiple times. Usually sk should support lane until you stack a camp 2-3 times, then kill it, then go back to supporting. Afk jungling isn't really ideal on heroes whose impact should be early in the game, but sk jungle is a lot better than naix or strygwyr
Who will stack for SK if not himself? Don't expect something like that in pubs.
Besides, SK is melee hero with very limited range stun early, "support lane" is not something SK good at. You can't just sit in lane with your carry, do nothing and call it "supporting".
you can pull and stuff. Also, I'm not a huge fan of most melee supports except maybe tree
Last game I had an axe on my team who jungled until min 20. We already won (was like 10-1) by then. 4v5=op
This thread seems like a good opportunity to bitch ... http://dotabuff.com/matches/722343234 the Doom (who was literally called 'Shit team every game' at the time...) PvE's a 13 minute midas; he got boots and ring of basi beforehand, which I would respect if he actually used them to do something pre-15 minutes. He then ended up flaming our Mag and AA ("2-7 [mag] my fault" WELL OF COURSE IT WAS YOUR FUCKING FAULT YOU'VE ACTUALLY MANAGED TO GET LEVEL 2 DOOM BEFORE DOOMING ANYONE WHILST TEAM WAS LOSING). Luckily pretty much everyone in the game shouted him down in all chat. So I guess that was a happy story in the end :D Still, oh god why did I solo queue, so painful....
Edit: I'd like to add that I was silent and put up with his afk-ness and "it's over" talk until he started flaming the AA and Mag. That was the worst, when you put up with someone's shit and get nothing for it.
Jungling Lifestealer is actually ok IMO if the player doing it doesn't afk farm and ganks the safelane early on. If the enemy doesn't have an escape it should be an easy kill. The best part is that since Lifestealer doesn't really need to use mana to farm he can blow all his mana on a gank and then go right back to farming the jungle or pressuring the tower after a kill.
It's not optimal but I think it's better than most people make it out to be.
Edit: I played LS jungle in both of these games because our AR lineup was weird. In both games I ganked bot 2 or 3 times in the first 10 minutes and helped our carry snowball to victory.
Well if by accident you got too many carries or solo heroes one of you has to jungle anyway or it will be awkward.
It's a skill that useful to have because who knows what will happened in pub.
@DD
havent LS for quite a while now but ye i do afk jungle with him before.
I disagree with 4-1-1 build and bottle with junglegion.
imo the point of junglegion is to maximise her chances of winning duels quicker even with the help of teammates not scare them off with OP nuke. purchasing bottle can hinder fast blink, having ring of basillius makes you jungle better cause of +armor, +mana regen, +atk.
Jungle pick is in most games the last pick of the game. Cores are taken, someone shows mercy and picks a support, so the last pos SHOULD be another support. Instead players go for junglefarmer. Thats just -1 gg go next. I would say in 85% of the games the team with the farming jungler will lose. Some ppl even send LS or WK into Jungle.
Hatsune, the reason you disagree is that you're less experienced and don't really understand the point of the game.
I mean, I suppose everything will work on your bracket. I'm not being mean, just serious.
Also, why you talk about Lifestealer jungle to me? I've never played with you (owell, once in lobbygame), neither know anything about your jungling LS expect going for a stupid 3 hand of speed ro whatever its called build.
The reason I dislike you is cause you tried to ruin that lobby game, DotA Cinema or whatever its called.
At that point I wanted to try out something else cause I lost so much pubs at that time, then I came to try dotacineme arena to avoid gameruiners, then you attempt to ruin my game by feeding and whatnot.
Also, after you did this, added me because I became your god and you wanted to play with me so I could carry you (which I didn't want to) then you pretend you're not Hatsune Miku cause you didn't want to be looked on like that orwhatever. AKA, one of those cunts.
Just because I called you an animefag, cmon
Although jungling lifestealer in lower brackets wont necessarily result in a lost game, the problem with it is that you end up going a feast build, stay in the jungle way too long, and then most players do a silly midas/armlet/treads build or something which is way to slow when not in the lane.
Also, LS is so strong in lane it is just kinda a waste.
For me it depends on who jungles. A carry in jungle annoys me since it usually means someone ends up as an extremely poor sole support and can barely even get their brown boots around 10min into the game. Being sole support is the worst experience in dota.
Heroes like Ench, Enigma, Chen, utility Doom, dark seer and Axe (NP too if he is not the super greedy kind, that most are) can be good in jungle as long as we have someone reliable solo offlane. Typical junglers can still lane decently anyway. Enigma eidolons are very underrated early, as they hit really hard (making ones from lane creeps denies xp too), Chen and Ench can still bring a creep from jungle into lane to harass while supporting a partner.
while jungling with a 'carry' hero like naix lc ursa forces a loss, i rather have them there instead of a second support that is going for a trilane and will do nothing during the entire early game except probably zoning the offlaner doing some pulls warding river and soaking carry's xp
@pomi
The idea of a "carry" in the jungle is less about the heroes ability to carry and more about the heroes ability to farm as quickly as they can in lane while in the jungle. Heroes like chen, enchantress and enigma can farm extremely fast in the jungle. Dark seer TB Doom and batrider can do so as well.
Of those listed, Doom and TB can be played as carries. Point being the jungle isn't the real issue. The issue is how much GPM you get in lane vs in the jungle.
Yes you have.
You played Vengeful in a lobby game. You did something stupid, I called you animefag and you went mid to try to ruin my lasthitting (which you failed at), then you just fed the opposite mid.
Then you added me, I was nice to you and all, but wondered why you added me. You had no reasoning, you just did. I was assuming you wanted to play with me cause, I mean. Why the fuck else would you add me?
You even claimed in another thread it was you, and you didnt care. I checked Melody, and he was friend wtih this Hatsune Miku. Rofl cmon, you're a bad troll.
It's kinda cute though. Probably I can lick your dick one day.
"WHY/WHEN GO JUNGLE GUIDE FOR NOOBS:
Jungle allows maximization of xp across the board for all 5 heroes - assuming u have a hero that can handle 2v1 situation eg. cw or ds
u can lane 1-1-3, with one support zoning out the offlaner for the carry, and the other support/jungler farming nc
WHY AM I ALWAYS LOSING WHEN THERES A JUNGLER
Chances are the jungler is fucking blind/doesnt support his lane, and/or u guys picked heroes that does not have strong enough lane presence to handle 2v3/1v2 situations
WHY DO PEOPLE GO JUNGLE AT LOWER MMR?
Its relatively safer than laning, u can almost afk farm hence if u get people like that on your team, you must pick heavy lifting heroes"
YES!
At low mmr junglers RARELY get ganked. Basically the only people who ever gank them are coordinated stacks of players and bloodseekers/slark/bhs mids. Even storm spirit mid will almost never gank you in jungle.
The reason junglers lose is the lanes are weaker, a lane ends up feeding and you can't come back. You don't have to gank from the jungle but you have to have a plan and not afk farm for ~20 mins. It is fine to jungle doom and not gank immediately once you get the net creep or doom at 6. Leaving the jungle to gank is a high risk move for little reward. Often pubs don't cooridinate ganks well enough so all you did was blow your mana and miss time farming.
If I'm jungling doom though? I get midas and boots and start pushing towers. Doom is a good pusher when hellfire is up. If I'm enigma? Get boots and soul ring/bassy and push towers, lifestealer same thing get boots and armlet and push. Don't afk but it is not required you gank.
The reason I like to jungle doom more than lane is because pub lane supports suck. They will NEVER secure you free farm or zone out enemy off laner. Thus I actually farm better in jungle even though lane has theoretically much more farm. Free farm almost never occurs in lane.
Basically junglers are awesome and will net your team a big xp advantage but don't be stupid and last pick one when your team has no capable off laners. Do pick one if someone picks like weaver, clock, mirana, clinzk, timber etc. Those guys do just as well solo offlane as duo offlane so there's really no point in running 2/1/2 with them.
^ I think only Silencer can 100% guarantee zone out anybody. Not all supports can do the same.
Besides, you can always pick Viper, Clinkz, Huskar etc. and secure farm by yourself. Don't expect easy Radiance on Spectre just because pros can do that.
Well duh, but spectre can't jungle so that's neither here nor there, the question is when is it simply better to go farm jungle than farm lane? Yes, spectre needs a good support but he can't jungle anyway so no options. My specific example was doom, very weak in lane with low armor and no regen except when he pops hellfire and then he is a beast. So it's kind of rough to farm stuff, but with a good support you can score kills. However the supports usually suck so it's much easier to jungle for more farm.
Lifestealer would be completely awful too except he can heal himself and thus stay in lane.
@DD
get your facts straight, i only have 3 games of venge and neither of them has you in it nor melody... pls bash someone else who cant take your bullshit
^ Doom is very strong in lane. Depends on what creep he gets Doom may have very high armor or ridiculous hp/mana regen. This is why Doom sometimes used as an offlaner. He is not easy to zone out and gets farm no matter what you do.
@ mark i really don't like jungle doom even if you get lucky with your spawns its hard to get your midas before 7 min, and your perpetually at low hp. in lane its really easy to get a sub 7 min midas. even if you are hardly getting any last hits just running up/pulling creeps towards you to take one and devouring another creep every now and then always seems to get me there. when your lane is really bad you can wonder off to the hard camp and stack it while devouring the biggest creep, after you do this a few times you can eat the big pink bird and use his tornado to farm the stack, i gess that's kind of half jungeling but still.
side note i am really bad with doom outside of lane so don't point to my trash win rate with him as proof that he doesn't farm better in lane.
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
That bug fix did weaken her though. Before it, she would get 2 hits with lifesteal per Moment of Courage proc. A farmed LC with some Duel wins could get her health from red to full with only 2 procs of her passive...needless to say, this also made winning Duels a lot easier.
What are you talking about soul trap? Which creep has mana regen? There's two good ones your referring too, the giant bird gives 3 armor which is nice but not very high. It makes his armor almost nothing to average, about 3.5 which is on par with like juggernaut, 1 higher than wraith king, 1.5 lower than sven. The hp regen is 4 per second. Which is quite strong. But not enough to make him beastly in lane and allow him to free farm whilst being harassed. The other large camps give you use abilities so chances are 2/5 you'll get one of those good ones and they aren't *that* good.
I'm not saying he is bad in lane, he is quite strong with proper support, and yes he gets farm because of devour. But the point is if he is being harassed constantly and your support is doing nothing but chain pulling he will get *more* farm in jungle.
When pros talk about how much better farm is in lane with every hero they're always assuming ideal lanes and a lot of times considering tri lanes vs a solo offlane which is quite easy to last hit against. This is rarely the case in my games.
the heal troll thingy has mana regen AURA. The spell doesn't have an icon/image for some reason, that's why many people don't know about it.
i feel like i should defend hatsune miku here ... in my experience with him he's always seemed patient, willing to take advice and has a good sense of humour - basically my idea of an ideal teammate (no homo). are you absolutely sure it was the same hatsune miku? because it really doesn't sound like him to me. there ARE a LOT of hatsune mikus around. if it really was him, then all i can say is, man, you really must have lay down the hate to make him feed mid, because i've never seen him do that :/
oh dear this is from my other account
^ Indeed http://dotabuff.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=Hatsune+Miku
And those are only the one's with active DB.
^^^ its a full 2 mana per second which is pretty crazy (small camp healer if any one didn't know).
back at mark if you take the bird its just for the tornado so you can farm stacks with out taking damage. the reason that should stack + devour the big camp when you are being zoned out is not for the ability you are going to get from the creeps, but rather for the large boost to XP and gold that you are getting from doing it.
look at it this way if you are jungleing doom at best you are clearing one big camp and one medium camp every minute. if you are laneing him and stacking + devouring the big camp every min, then you are getting the same amount of gold and XP from that camp that you would be getting if you were jungling it. that stack will take 20 sec, this leaves you with 40 sec in lane every min. if you are getting at least 2.5 last hits on average in this 40 sec then you will be getting the same gold then you would get from farming the medium camp in that time. even if your support is leaching XP your still getting more in lane then you would get from the medium camp in that 40 sec.
so long as you can get more then 2.5 last hits on average in lane every 40 sec its better to lane him.
just so some one doesn't say i am just pulling numbers out of my ass i feel the need to say where i am getting them.
all medium camps give between give between 89 and 122 gold on average while each lane creep gives between 38 and 53 gold this is where i am getting the 2.5 CS = 1 medium camp. saying that it takes 20 sec to stack a big camp form lane is also being a little generous from the dire safe lane its likely more like 10 seconds maby less if you broke the right trees. if you have a method of jungeling with doom where you can farm more then 1 hard camp and 1 medium camp on avarge every min for the first 7 min please link me a video of it.
No I can't and I usually get my jungle midas around 6 mins. I guess I suck at effectively farming the creeps while in lane =p I'll try some of your tips.
I thought with the tornado thing you had to channel it though? So you sit back and leech lane xp while farming the camp from afar?
its channeled but the creeps wont agro on you and it clears stacks really fast. ideally you would be getting close to free farm in lane and having your support stack for you, but this will get you pretty good farm if you are soloing safe lane or dual laneing with a useless support.
Jungle is fine when you just wanna get gold without confront enemy heroes in lane early, if somebody of your team gonna ruins the lanes it's because that guy gonna ruin it no matter if he have chuan/dendi/jesus as support/mid/offlane.
Jungle is the best option for get the monies.
ROLF do you seriously think that playing legion in a way that you depend on your team its the way of playing the hero in pubs ?
If you need to trust your team in something then the hero is not good at all, that its how i see every pub game
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Any oppinions on jungling so far?
My exp. is, that a Junglerteam normally loses the fucking game. The last 20 games I played, I only won 1 game, where we had a passive Jungler, who went midas etc. I do not mean a nice jungler like Chen/Ench, who come out of their jungle to make a kill. Jungle is so weak right now, why the fuck ppl still go there.