General DiscussionQueen of Pain 6.88 - what happened

weak as kittens

-raindrops kinda counters scream
-too squishy to fight reliably; getting caught after blink almost always means youre dead
-only offers damage rofl
-mirana is a better hero

It has to accomplish so much in early game to be relevant later

Too one dimensional
Paper
Snowball reliant

Infused Raindrops... same goes to lina/puck

She is a really niche pick...... Sonic Wave is the only reason to ever pick her atm.

Other spells low dmg, no extraordinary rightclick potential.....
Lina is better here, puck is too because they offer way more utility than qop does.

because if u don't own the map with 9/0/11 or some shit min 20 u may just as well go afk in ur fountain

So to summarize:

1. Raindrop
2. Other heroes took buffs while QoP stay in the same spot.
3. Aghs Mirana offers way higher magic damage potential while also offer stun and mass invis. (only con of mirana is weaker blink called leap)
4. QoP falls off into lategame very hard (it was always the case but now its even bigger issue)

I think she is suffering in similiar manner as ember spirit now (new items are not game breaking on them and they were kept in the "dont patch zone" while other heroes where having small buffs in last 3 patches).

She's actually had both direct and indirect nerfs on top of not being buffed - part of Icefrog trying to get her out of the meta. Last buff was 5 patches ago (6.83) where blink distance was increased and Sonic Wave became pure.

Since then for direct nerfs she got a -5 movespeed, sonic wave damage cut by 20 and it moves a little slower, scream damage was reduced by -10/-15/0/0.

For indirect nerfs the magic resistance aura in the big camps slows her farming speed since she can't clear stacked camps and even just a single big camp still takes longer to farm. Bottle mana regen got nerfed, it now only gves 180 mana total rather than 210 - used to be you could get a level 4 scream and a blink out of a single rune (ie 140+60), now you can't.

And yeah new items dont really benefit her. Iron talon is not very good for ranged heroes. If you go Dragon Lance for tankiness and extra attack range you have no mana regen. If you go aether lens then it doesn't affect scream of pain since aether lens doesn't increase radius damage spells like scream, necro pulse, reflection etc. Only point and click spells.

Echo sabre is useless for her. Blight stone/desolator is not a good item even though its a fairly common pick up (deso actually has one of the lowest average winrates for the +damage items when built upon her).

Bloodthorn seemed to be one of the kind of items which she should like given how important orchid is for her, but even then it doesn't do too much for her. Current average winrate of 63% when she builds a bloodthorn (48% for plain orchid), compared to storm shitter who has 73% winrate with bloodthorn.'

Aghs turns her ulti from a 140 sec cooldown to a 40 sec cooldown and gives +85 damage. Pretty pathetic given that in that time Mirana's Aghs will have cast a 300 damage 650 aoe nuke five times in the duration of the cooldown of QoPs ulti.

Well played Murranji, very detailed answer which actually explains everything i was asking about. I would like/+ ur post but Dotabuff doesn't have this functionality ;P

I love qop and still feel that she a great mid, but because of the meta she becomes useless late game. However, whenever some kid goes alch mid I still pick qop. One day the meta will favor her again

Even when she was meta her winrate was bad
Pros REALLY overrate her leading to a nerf. Her winrate at ti5 (when she was meta) was like 35% iirc
Pretty much the same this ti

There was also a patch which added more base hp for everyone and increased hp per point in strength, which also contributes to her difficulties with bursting heroes.

ember is perfectly playable actually

Funny how someone said:

" -too squishy to fight reliably; getting caught after blink almost always means youre dead "

Hasn't it always been like that?

and:

" only offers damage. "

what is that suppose to mean? lmao

She's still a good hero, extremely well rounded, and at TI5 if you didnt forget it seemed like she fit into any line up. It's just that for some of the reasons the people above stated she's just not meta, still good, there's just better heroes now, more tankier heroes. In 6.84 there was many more squishy meta heroes.

But the raindrops and HP buff to all heroes hurt her a lot though.

Build around an Agh and Blade Mail core with Linken's, Scythe, and Octarine as your late game. She's a lot more relevant when she can dish out damage through BM and live long enough for her other nukes to come off cool down. If this is a meta of tanky heroes, just turn her into a tank. She already has the right skill set for it, all the player needs to do is build the right item set.

Orchid in a meta of Manta, Diffusal, Euls, BKB, Cape, Blade Mail, Armlet, Silver Edge, Lotus, Linken's, Greaves... not as good anymore.

tanky cores make it harder for her to snowball; support's job of lighting the map is now easier making it trickier for her to get surprise pick offs when she gets a good rune; the addition of defensive items such as raindrops and maybe faerie fire make renders her ineffective to a degree

as long as people continue to build agahs on her, she'll stay shit

raindrops made her useless piece of trash

but ss removes it lol

So I tested my build without the Agh rush and instead went straight to Linken's after Blade Mail. Turns out QoP might be even better without Agh at all if she goes Bottle, Treads, Blade Mail, Linken's. I should also mention the enemy team took out 2 of our tier 3 towers by 20 minutes in, and we had to turtle for the next 20 minutes, so this was definitely a defensive Agh QoP game. And I should also mention I was back seat, farm wise, to my laning partner, Spectre.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2635281543

Total amount of hp of every hero has increased

late game she's just an outclassed version of storm