General DiscussionWhen to get Battlefury on Juggernaut

If you are safelane and you think that you need the farm acceleration to deal with enemy heroes get it. I pretty much always get it but I'm a greedy player and I'm sure that just blindly rushing it every game isn't a good idea.

Battlefury is a must have item for jugg (unless your a mid)

^I think mid juggers can also make battlefury, but in their case, (after RoA, PMS and Phase) u rush the swords for omnislash damage first and make perseverance later cuz as mid u need the dmg for omnislash ganks. correct?

mid battlefury juggernaut rarely works in my experience because you cant find the space to farm

mid battlefury juggernaut rarely works in my experience because you cant find the space to farm

10/10 correct.

Jugger always want to buy bf, but facing a early push/5man lineup or some Drow/tb he just loose with it
That case try to get early Vanguard and yasha so you have high farming Speed and can Line with decent dps aginst ranged get Dagger otherwise Manta difu Rush
The game will result will be high Speed and bf will be shit
If you get bf your useless in fights so you will loose rosh +all t1s pre 16min and you can Farm the jungle anymore and you will deff hg with bf yasha
*Ofc you can also punnish a pick like spec without bf

My exprerince i get 3
bf,sangeyasha,septerter i rampage 2 time lol

Every game

Just few lol
But i preffer is bf,sangeyasya,septer,assaultcruise,refreshorb
Best item

Manta diffusal is better if you wanna come online early

For me it's
No space = vg diffuser/ drums yasha
5min space = yasha manta diffusal or yasha fury of situation improves
10min space =fury

Oh no people who thinks scepter is a must have item on jugger are coming

is going yasha fury ok
i feel like i'm farming so slow just with phase and fury

If you're going to go Manta it is, otherwise buying Midas after BFury has about the same effect farm wise. As far as bang for your buck farming speed goes, Deso/Aquila/Talon can easily out farm a BFury, even if it was given 1000 more net worth to work with.

But deso aquila talon doesn't exactly give slot efficiency
But yeah I get your point

when should i build deso on jugg? its feels underwhelming atm, and what items should i use it in conjunction with?

Can anyone tell me why some people go for manta before BF?

Deso vlad AC
Works ok on an armor reduction strat

late game, what should I replace it with? deso and vlad not really great, and if i dont manage to close off the game at -40 *minutes*. satanic and skadi/daedalus okay?

No, it isn't very slot efficient. However~

This is the Deso/Aquila/Talon build that can out farm a Bfury, assuming you have reveal and tp. I clocked this build doing 2 nc camps with 2 Iron Talon uses at 29 seconds.

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This is what I replaced Iron Talon with. I clocked this 1 item replacement build at doing the same 2 nc camps at 16 seconds.

No, those 3 items with Phase Boots aren't very slot efficient, but by the time you're ready to fill the 6th slot where Talon goes, you'll be ready to out farm a build that out farms a Bfury.

Edit: I just realized you even gain armor from this trade off at around 20-25 minutes.

Edit 2: The games to get Bfury are the ones where you need push/counter-push and team fight orientated matches.

Thx for the info fam
@Haffy
Satanic is ok against a team that lacks disable but hits hard so you can outlast them,but shit rarely happens
Skadi is like one of the items that works well with all 4 of his spells,so yeah,great item
Vlad deso AC build is meant for deathballing to victory and end the game in 35 min or less,so if the game prolongs you'd probably lose before you get the chance to change vlad deso to skadi satanic
Without armor reduction strat it's quite underwheling ofc,other deathball builds are better if you're not going for that strat
These items works for it
Drum
Aquila
Vanguard
Soul ring
Yasha
Vlad is ok for deathball even without deso
Diffusal

Daedalus is bad :(
Same reason why you don't get blink dagger on AM
You already have a skill that replaces it whatsoever,why waste more slot?

If you're going to go Manta it is, otherwise buying Midas after BFury has about the same effect farm wise. As far as bang for your buck farming speed goes, Deso/Aquila/Talon can easily out farm a BFury, even if it was given 1000 more net worth to work with.

That funny to you?

yes

im ready to see some statistics, shit's gonna get lit

^but it's not 4:20 yet

also cardona i thought bfury is a legit option if i want to outfarm the enemy hc to come online faster, maybe spec or dusa. why do you say to just get it for waveclear against np/some summoner and teamfights

also game where i was able to switch deso to satanic lmao
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2638763028

Not a fan of throwing away a desolator,but still ok considering how late the game goes
Throwing away BF is ok after you're 6 slotted in 35 min and you dont need the cleave and farm speed anymore
While deso...is just a chunk of damage

is it required to sell bfury after you get six-slotted? my personal plan whenever i get six-slotted is to just put bfury in the stash for waveclear if ever i need to defend base from megacreeps or np treant spam

Not required but sometimes the cleave isn't something you want more compared to other luxury items
Against an NP you'll hold it anyway

Yo haf we can play sometime,you seems like a nice guy :)

[BB]CardonaNotta's comments are sh*ts tbh. Then i check his profile and saw normal skill bracket then i realize where's his comment came from.

steamcommunity.com/id/potanginamoakomid add me broseph

So I ran several builds to see how much NW was needed and how much was returned. Here are the results:

All start with 0 gold at the starting gong and all go for 5 minutes almost exactly without lane creeps.

The only skill that can be slotted is Healing Ward and only if it is required to survive.

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Midas pre BF pre farm

Midas pre BF post farm

Yasha post BF post farm (post isn't allowing me to show pre Yasha here even though it is showing up in Edit Comment)

Same as above concerning Vanguard.

Midas post BF pre farm

Midas post BF post farm

Decent self reliance with Poor Man's Shield.

Yasha post BF pre farm

Yasha post BF post farm

To be honest, I felt this was the smoothest experience of any of the builds I tried. Amazing farm speed, amazing self reliance.

Echo-Yasha pre farm

Echo-Yasha post farm

Not nearly as smooth as the BF build. I actually had to use Ward to survive farming every minute and a half or so.

Deso-Yasha pre farm

Deso-Yasha post farm

Same as before, it wasn't as self reliant as BF build. And it didn't feel as smooth.

Echo-Deso pre farm

Echo-Deso post farm

Same as before, not as self reliant as the BF build. This one, however, hit a lot harder. If you wanted to 3-4 shot an enemy core at 20 minutes in, this would be the build to do it.

Diffusal-Yasha pre farm

Diffusal-Yasha post farm

Same as before, not as self reliant as the BF build. Towards the end of testing these builds I was definitely leaning towards AGI core builds over straight damage. The attack speed felt much smoother on Juggernaut than the Echo/Deso builds.

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Midas pre BF = 3290 Net Worth (excluding Vanguard)
Yasha pre BF = 3290 Net Worth (excluding Vanguard)
Midas post BF = 8290 Net Worth
Yasha post BF = 8290 Net Worth
Echo-Yasha = 7425 Net Worth
Deso-Yasha = 8275 Net Worth
Echo-Deso = 7890 Net Worth
Diffusal-Yasha = 7925 Net Worth

All of the builds that breached 2.4k were, at the very least, clearing the entire jungle, or close to it, by the 3 minute mark.

When you play League Kappa

@Triggered-

Taken from same level and same creep camp (HELLBEAR) on a level 10 Juggernaut.
Battlefury 4500 Net Worth = 8 seconds (4500 total)
Battlefury 4500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth= 6 seconds (5485 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + 2 Blades of Alacrity 2000 Net Worth = 15 seconds (4650 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth + Wraith Band 485 Net Worth = 9 seconds (3635 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth = 7.5 seconds (4135 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Dragon Lance 1900 Net Worth + Basilius 500 Net Worth = 13 seconds (5050 total)
Echo Sabre 2650 Net Worth + Dragon Lance 1900 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth = 8 seconds (5050 total)
Desolator 3500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth = 8 seconds (4485 total)
Desolator 3500 Net Worth + Aquila 985 Net Worth + Iron Talon 500 Net Worth = 5.5 seconds (4985 total)

While this is still true, the health regen in BF makes it more viable for long term farming as opposed to how fast it can farm individual nc camps when you have to tank them as opposed to just lhing in lane.

Phase RoA BF Manta Diffusial

Why would you ever deviate from this build? Assuming safelane pos 1 Jugg.

For the record, a complete Manta with BF on a 5 minute run.

Pre

Post

11190 Net Worth. And I did have to go to lane at about the 40 second mark nearly every time.