It weakens lanes and gives the enemy team the opportunity to do whatever they want with them because it's a 4v5 scenario.
reasonable, but isn't some useless hero in early game like AM and slark do better in jungle? these heroes doesn't impact much to game anyway in early game.
I can also jungle slark and get bf in 12 min
It sucks if one of your teammates jungle especially if you are a solo support believe me its crazy hard, lets say what if your enemy will have for example 2 or 3 roaming support then your lanes are screwed, have you experienced this? then as a jungler what have you done? and also what hero you used when this happened.
I usually support these days and when I compare games that we tri lane safe lane or there's a jungler the latter is unnecessarily harder, if you pick POS 4 why not just a roamer support like Pudge or other roamers believe me games would have been so much easy.
a good antimage safelane can be extremely impactful in the early game as a super high antimage can solo zone out the offlaner(s) and let the supports go roam and gank making it so that you win ALL 3 LANES.
meanwhile a jungler does the opposite
Am and slark arent useless if they have a good zoning support who keeps the offlaner low leveled. At that point you just Punch creeps for 15 mins, get slotted and win the game.
Only time it moderately works is if you have a centaur/timber/bristle offlane who insists on being solo and your safelane support is competent
People hate jungle because of jungle legion, 88% of which are autistic
nah pretty much any jungler core makes life miserable to your support, as well as other heroes. your carry is against a cancer aggro lane? gg you lose the game coz carry is getting 1cs/min and then jungler starts blaming support and carry and everyone for ruining his game.
at least if the jungler doesnt warn beforehand so you can pick some shit like 3 core bristleback viper and centaur
Unless , you are a fucking bloodseeker lvl 6 at minute 6 and helping lanes , i will be more happy have jungler than a support (seriously , i love bloodseeker jungler in my games , super powerfull spike early)
I cannot hate on this thread because your name is epic. German eszett and everything. Let's see if anyone else catches on.
this post is just wrong. the heroes you mentioned are much better off getting gold and xp in lane than in the jungle, especially in mmr matches like you said, you will most likely have a support or two that are willing to zone properly to ensure that you get the appropriate farm. trust me, the pos 1-3 benefits greatly from being in lane unless you are clearly running a 4 core 1 support lineup.
Jungle is fine with the right hero: Enigma, LC, Lifestealer, Axe Enchantress, sometimes meepo. But if you are going to jungle, pick it early.
^lifestealer jungle is mega cancer. There is only one true jungle hero, bloodseeker. Every other jungler either leaves the jungle by lvl 2 (chen, ench, maybe doom). Every other hero who jungles is always better in lane.
I play support (You can check my profile) since I dunno how to play core (except for meepo) and trust me. fucking junglers are a disaster for me. since it weakens lanes and I can't even pull camps since well, fucking junglers take it. and then during clashes, where are the junglers? well IN THE JUNGLE shitting. basically it's 4v5 until the jungler decided to join.. it makes the game very very very difficult in my opinion.
Jungle weaken you lane,it's the hardest way to grind mmr.
For example if you need to hit 4K with jungle you must have 4.5K map awareness/decision making to cover back the time that you jungle,which is early game. For laner early game is most important.
Also you must know your power spike extremely well if you jungle with particular hero.
Good luck my jungle son.
PS:I am full time Jungler, dotabuff why you put roamer tag in me when I jungle?
Recently I just found out that jungler perform much better in a team then pub.
If you party and let your other mate know you gonna jungle and they can do solo support/offlane it would be good, better communication = easier win
It is very bad because when you go jungle all your lanes are weak. So your opponents will apply pressure early on and then easily snowball to victory. But if your enemy supports are retards and all they do is leech exp in the safelane, than jungle is actually extremely good.
You just simply can't go jungle with 2 supports.
As 1 will roam or help the offlane and the second would be helping the safelane ,and if you are not there then your support will just feed and get no xp or gold.
If you are laning for around three mins or so and you can't farm becoz you are getting zoned then you can farm jungle but you have to show up at the lane.
If you play with 1 support then jingling is fine as their would be one more carry.
^Good insight
1 hardlaner (cent,nyx ect)
1 support
no roamer
Early game be passive farm gold exp is what a team with jungler should do.
people hate jungle because they get those afk farming natures prophets who afk farm for the whole game, dont gank or anything
and those jungle legions who do dont gank when they get lvl 6
My mother always used to say, that if you go into the jungle minute one, you better have bazooka's for biceps when you come out.
My mother always used to say, that if you go into the jungle minute one, you better have bazooka's for biceps when you come out.
Your mother is a wise woman
It gets harder and harder as you climb up the rank. And there is no way to preserve that 70% winrate from now and on (3,5k+) on Lycan, i'll tell you that.
Because it's easy as fuck to punish and junglers are usually retards who afk farm for 15 minutes, making the lane 4v5 and still ends up being poor after eating so much space
Your safelaner and midlaner won't have their backup plan which is to jungle
Because most pub players don't know how to play with, or indeed how to pick with a jungler in your lineup. If you have a jungler, it means you probably have a solo offlaner. And if you're going to have a solo offlaner, you need him to pick a proper hero that can hold his own solo, and benefit from the solo lane's gold/exp.
But also, with a jungler in your team, you need a strong early game lineup, that can hold its own in early game entirely 4v5. If the majority of the team pick late game heroes, or heroes who don't have a native cc/sustain, they'll get steamrolled because they're outnumbered.
I just hate junglers cuz they simply take pos 1 and 2 farm. Cuz sometimes if u push lane when u r playing slark u wonna go jungle and farm 2-3 camps to wait the lane to go back to ur tower. Or somitemes u have to leave mid for couple of minutes for some reasons(gangs, no vision, etc). BUT SRY ALL THE JUNLGE IS FARMED. And i kinda stops ur farm and it ruins ur tumings.
i don't hate jungler as long as they active roam when they got the chance, not afk jungle for 30min.
Jungling is bad for both you and the people you get to be teammates with.
First off, just like everybody said it, it makes your lanes weak. All the explanation is above.
Second, it won't work in higher level games. Better players will find oppurtunities to punish and exploit that you have a jungler on your team.
Third, (probably the most important for me) jungle just doesn't teach you how to lane and that is what every player in dota should learn to master. Every lane is a different game, especially solo mid, for mid every matchup is a different game. A puck vs qop is different from a puck vs ta, with jungle lycan you just do the same thing every game and there's only little variation in what you're doing. Stop getting baited by guides and videos that try to advertise these sort of strategies, they're basically like cheese strats (if you know starcraft terminology) that usually depends on you not getting punished. Trust me I used to be fond of those kinds of strats but what you're really doing is just inflating your mmr because that's probably the only way you know how to play the game but in reality there's a better and more concrete way to play dota.
indirect impact on all the other players in the game
allows enemy supps to rotate and pressure all the lanes
allows enemy mid to feel save cz hes not ganked (we r talking about those solo queue junglers and not ench/chen, right?)
allows enemy offlane to win his lane
ur offlane is pretty much lost on average as well
ur mid cant efficiently rotate to jungle if he gets zoned
same goes for ur safelane carry
ur pos5 has no freedom at all, cant move on the map, neither able to buy boots untill min 10 or smthng (unless he gives up on wards)
Because most pub players don't know how to play with, or indeed how to pick with a jungler in your lineup. If you have a jungler, it means you probably have a solo offlaner. And if you're going to have a solo offlaner, you need him to pick a proper hero that can hold his own solo, and benefit from the solo lane's gold/exp
indirect impact on all the other players in the game
allows enemy supps to rotate and pressure all the lanes
allows enemy mid to feel save cz hes not ganked (we r talking about those solo queue junglers and not ench/chen, right?)
allows enemy offlane to win his lane
ur offlane is pretty much lost on average as well
ur mid cant efficiently rotate to jungle if he gets zoned
same goes for ur safelane carry
ur pos5 has no freedom at all, cant move on the map
Well said,you gotta be have a solo support and offlane, and you have to really be impactful after you jungle out, and the shorter it take the better for sure
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I jungle 100% with Lycan and still got 70% winrate, what the problem with jungle that people keep flaming me not be in lane?
also I jungle with AM, Naga, Treant, LC, Drow, Void and Arc warden still got 58% - 62% in mmr.