General DiscussionWhen to abandon the rat

obviously
when you're losing more value you gotta abandon the rat
though if u think ur team capable of repelling the push without losing too much then by all means rat straight away
its kinda split second thinking
along with the enemy probably try to def
they will try to tp
if your team can catch that moment
or even better cancel the tp
then its better for you
its all depends on the game split second moment i think
as you get better at ratting , you'll know when to abandon or not

Ok but going back to help my team doesnt guarantee victory also. And if the opponent doesnt tp back, is 1 rax and 1 tower worth it for 1 tier 3 tower? (maybe still can get their shrines if they back afterwards)

If I were to push their T3, while they're pushing mine as 5 and my 4 man team would ping me to back to defend, while I know that we won't win the fight, I wouldn't back off.
Instead, I would rather take their rax in exchange, if they don't have TPs OR I would force 1-2 TPs and back off to my T3 and start a teamfight 5v3(4), chase the remainder of thier team and kill them.

Destroying melee rax is like getting their lane down, so of course getting enemy melee rax is worth losing your T3, it's a no-brainer.

In fact, I would trade single melee rax for 2 T3 towers and still think it's a good exchange.

1. If an important core on your team dies, fighting then will almost always be advantageous for them, even though you're on the high ground. In that case, continue trading racks and tell your team to not commit.
2. If it's a 5v5 situation and your team has good waveclear, continue ratting. Chances are, you'll get more done without contestion while they will keep getting pushed back.
3. Aegis is another important factor, since as you'll see in the pro scene, it is almost mandatory to have one on the frontliner who hits buildings and doesn't mind getting initiated on by key spells like lasso.
4. Tp is another obvious factor. If you force even one person on their team back by ratting, tping back will put your team in a 4v5 favour and you'll have a better chance to win the teamfight. This is where heroes like IO, KOTL and Underlord come in. Being able to stop the split push and join the team to continue sieging is key. One of the many reasons why NP is so good at ratting.
5. If the enemy is not smart enough to go rosh before sieging high ground but are winning and have more kills and farm, I would actually recommend fighting them 5v5, but not directly. Leave one wave clearing hero in base and smoke with the other 4 to wrap around them. This will most likely turn in your favour since the enemy is overconfident enough to not go rosh.

Eh no i think u isunderstand me. Becuz they are 5 so they will be able to push faster and get a T3 nd a melee rax down. While i only be able to get the T3 before someone tp back. Is the trade still ok or?

only abandon ratting if you can actually win the hg defense
theres no point of joining your team's feed train

ratting is life.
Unless they're pushing HG really early and you feel like your presence will make a difference, never stop ratting.

Also the trade is not favorable, but It is your fault that it's not. If you're a split pushing hero like AM you should cut the creepwave first then proceed the rat. It's too late to consider your options after they're already knocking on your HG door.

there aer some factor i consider before tping back.

1. do we have heroes that can effectively defend hg? Are they good ebough to def. Ive "fight under the tower to chat wheel, i spam if i want them to def. its usually works.
2. What hero are u playing and what items you have? can you take their rax before they can take your tower or sometimes i even go for trade one 2 rax vs 1 like that. this decision can be very situational. i mostly rat with np so it really fast to push and be on every part of map.

also see how many siege wagon are there. if the enemy isnt tping to def or the one who does doent have wave clear as NP you should push the wave to tower create treants and tp back

But the most important aspect of ratting is your team must know how to turtle

Becuz they are 5 so they will be able to push faster and get a T3 nd a melee rax down. While i only be able to get the T3 before someone tp back. Is the trade still ok or?

Yes, it is true that they are 5 trying to go for high ground. But the fact is, most likely not all of them are good tower hitters (atleast in a relatively high mmr draft). If despite that the "not good tower hitters" are hitting the tower, it means they are closer to each other and more susceptible to huge AOE teamfight combos like Phoenix, Enigma, Invoker, Faceless Void, Warlock etc. etc. If you don't have one of those on the team, you have the weaker draft.

If they all are good tower hitters, they are most likely a greedy 4/5 core lineup which you did not capitalise on in the early game by 5 manning and pushing towers. They probably afk jungled and farmed their items and despite being weaker than your 1/2 cores, will hit harder together.

Another important thing of course, is that if you are the one who's ratting, it should be on a core who is designed to split push and take towers while the enemy is not nearby trying to gank you. And an even more important thing, something that I forget very easily too, is cutting the enemy's creepwaves in the lane they are trying to push. Its very easy on high mobility heroes like Anti Mage and Storm Spirit.

Finally somebody mentioned wave cutting

Never go back,focus on destroying enemies ancient is the way to win

what icetea said, force enemy to come back, not the other way around

u dont even have to b since you are cutting waves and you have backdoor on

it depends a lot
only return if u bait tp's and u can win the fight when u go back to defend
stay if u r behind and need to trade rax to even things up
if u bait tp's, but still can't win the fight top, and can kill the support or whatever they sent to defend, do that, and continue ratting
this shit can get super complicated so it is kinda a judgment thing u have to learn

protip: always check the mmr of the player giving the tip, disregard anyone lower than you, or anyone in NS.